Talk:County town
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[edit] Cities?
Surely these county 'towns' you've listed are in fact known as CITIES!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.222.128.2 (talk • contribs) .
- Most of them ARE cities (but not all of them. Ipswich has failed numerous times to achieve City status), but the term is 'County Town' regardless of the actual status of the place.
- On a different subject, I was under the impression that Preston was the county town of Lancashire. Anyone confirm or deny? - Darac
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- The council HQ is at Preston, and apparently moved there in 1974, at the time of the reorganisation of administrative counties. This raises the prospect that there may be "traditional" County Towns and current administrative HQs that do not correspond (see also Talk:Leicester). I can't find an authoritative list at the moment. --rbrwr
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- Preston has been the headquarters of Lancashire County Council since the creation of the first county councils in the 19th century not since 1974. Preston was probably chosen as it is more central than Lancaster. Penrithguy 11:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Checking
Done some checking and in addition to Leicestershire's being Glenfield, Derbyshire's is in Matlock. (Nottinghamshire's is (extraterritorially now) in Nottingham). So it's either erroneous or a list of historical county towns, which needs stating. --Morwen.
- Wiltshire's is Trowbridge, though some sources give Salisbury this status. I don't know whether Swindon was ever county town (as the list claims); it's now a unitary.
- This also can't be historical county towns. It contains East and West Sussex (rather than just Sussex) and North Yorks (not the three Ridings) but not Huntingdonshire or Rutland. Also Cumbria rather than Cumberland and Westmorland. --rbrwr
[edit] provisional list
Here's a provisional list ordered by counties
Traditional Counties
- Bedfordshire - Bedford
- Berkshire - Reading (now no County Council)
- Buckinghamshire - Aylesbury
- Cambridgeshire - Cambridge
- Cheshire - Chester
- Cornwall - Bodmin, now Truro
- Cumberland - Carlisle (now part of Cumbria)
- Derbyshire - Derby, now Matlock
- Devon - Exeter
- Dorset - Dorchester
- County Durham - Durham
- Essex - Chelmsford
- Gloucestershire - Gloucester
- Hampshire - Winchester
- Herefordshire - Hereford (now a unitary)
- Hertfordshire - Hertford
- Huntingdonshire - Huntingdon (now no County Council)
- Kent - Maidstone
- Lancashire - Lancaster, now Preston
- Leicestershire - Leicester, now Glenfield
- Lincolnshire - Lincoln
- Middlesex - probably Brentford, may be Clerkenwell or Westminster (now part of Greater London)
- Norfolk - Norwich
- Northamptonshire - Northampton
- Northumberland - Alnwick, Newcastle upon Tyne, Morpeth
- Nottinghamshire - Nottingham (now extraterritorial)
- Oxfordshire - Oxford
- Rutland - Oakham
- Shropshire - Shrewsbury
- Somerset - Taunton
- Staffordshire - Stafford
- Suffolk - Ipswich
- Surrey - Guildford, but the County offices are currently extraterritorial at Kingston upon Thames
- Sussex - Chichester, (also Lewes)
- now East Sussex - Lewes
- and West Sussex - Chichester
- Warwickshire - Warwick
- Westmorland - Appleby (now part of Cumbria)
- Wiltshire - Trowbridge (formerly Salisbury?)
- Worcestershire - Worcester
- Yorkshire
- North Riding (also North Yorkshire) - Northallerton
- East Riding - Beverley
- West Riding - Wakefield
1974 counties (except metros)
- Avon - Bristol (now unitaries)
- Cumbria - Carlisle
- Isle of Wight - Newport
- Cleveland, England - Middlesbrough (now unitaries)
- Humberside - Beverley (or Kingston upon Hull?) (now unitaries)
Humberside's HQ was in Beverley, not Hull, according to my 1983 Whitaker's Almanac. A check on the W Sussex website puts County Hall in Chichester, not Worthing. --rbrwr
The situation with Middlesex is apparently this: the magistrates sat at Clerkenwell from the late middle ages until the 19th century. County elections were held at Brentford during the 18th and 19th century (1911 Brittannica calls it the "county-town for elections"). The County Council sat at Westminster from 1889 to 1965. There is no longer a council.
Not a registered user here, but anyway... I contributed some of the stuff to this page originally, taking info from Bucks County Council's list of authorities, which needed updating. There is a map available for free use at http://www.abcounties.co.uk/counties/map.htm (as long as you provide a link to their page) showing the pre-1974 traditional counties of the UK though not the towns associated with such. but with the amount of historical societies out there I imagine it shouldn't be too difficult to find out the info about pre-1974 county towns. I imagine that would be easier because since 1974 and especially since the reshuffle in the 1990's nobody seems to know exactly what a county is any more...
- Well, I've put the list up on the page, and the general public can pick it apart up there. --rbrwr 18:57, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)
[edit] UK/Ireland only?
Is the term "county town" used anywhere at all except the UK and Ireland? The article suggests it's more widespread but doesn't have any examples. Stan 20:18, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Do we need a list of the preserved counties of Wales?
As these have no administrative functions themselves the old administrative HQs are no longer used for anything relating to them. Owain 09:28, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
- I'll stress they are former county towns; the list should remain for historical purposes. Warofdreams 14:36, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
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- The way the text for the "Preserved counties of Wales" section is currently worded implies that the administrative HQ of a unitary authority is referred to as the "county town" of that authority. This is stretching the definition of county town beyond what is usually meany by the term. In many cases a unitary authority has council offices in multiple places "within" that authority so that there is no central HQ. I would suggest that the whole section is redundant. Owain 18:35, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Names of Scottish Counties
In Scotland counties only counties that share a name with their county town (or former county town) end in -shire. Examples are Perthshire or Kincardineshire. Counties such as Caithness or Argyll whose county towns have a different name from them should not have the -shire suffix. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:59, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)
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- They don't have to have the suffix, but there is no reason why they can't have it - much in the same way as Devon or Dorset can be Devonshire or Dorsetshire. Owain 18:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Leicestershire / Nottinghamshire
Surely if Glenfield is the CT of Leicestershire, West Bridgford should be the CT of Nottinghamshire? --Cavrdg 18:32, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
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- That is clearly a nonsense though. That would be corrupting the phrase "county town" to be merely "the location of the administrative headquarters of a top-level administrative area", rather than all the other connotations it has, such as historical, geographical, cultural significances, &c. The county towns of Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire are Leicester and Nottingham respectively. Any definition that makes it any other way is clearly broken. Owain 18:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article is A county town is the location of the administrative headquarters of a county. You're very welcome to write something better. Formally, County Hall, Glenfield is in Blaby (district) and County Hall, West Bridgford is in Rushcliffe rather than their respective cities so we're currently being inconsistent with the definition as well as between the two. --Cavrdg 06:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
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- I've had a go at rewording the introductory sentence to try and make it make more sense. Owain 10:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Metropolitan counties & Unitary Authorites
How about adding a section listing the "county towns" or adimistrative centres of the former metroplitan counties (1974 - 1986) and Greater London which was and is in some respects still classed as a county. And expanding on that what about the unitary authorites that replaced the metropolitan county councils and later in the 1990s some district & county coucils surely have "County Towns" though I know most are not regarded as counties in their own right and many consist of a single town or city. Penrithguy 17:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Clarification on terminology
I've slightly amended the introductory paragraphy to show that this article refers only to the UK and Ireland. I've also added a note regarding the use of "parish seat" in Louisiana. But I'm a bit surprised that no-one to date has written anything about the term "shire town"? I'm not entirely sure how to define it myself, but it would be a useful addition. {{Silverhelm 00:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)}}
[edit] Yorkshire
Are Wakefield, Beverley and Northallerton definitely historical seats of the Quarter Sessions, etc? I was also surprised to discover the Lancashire administration has been based at Preston since 1882, if not before - County Hall at Preston definitely predates County Hall at Wakefield Morwen - Talk 19:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- Also, I am unconvinced about the sentence in the intro regarding York itself - "contrary to popular belief"- eh? The 1911 EB claims York is the county town of Yorkshire, it doesn't mention "county town" in the entries for Wakefield, Northallerton or Beverley Morwen - Talk 19:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Preston and Lancaster
According to Lewis's Topographical Dictionary of England, Vol. III (1831):
- Lancaster was the "county town":
.the assizes and general quarter sessions for the county are also held in this town, which also, as being the county town, the election of knights of the shire takes place. Lancaster Castle was apparently used by the Grand Jury.
- However at Preston:
The quarter sesions of the county, the meetings of the deputy lieutenents and other county meetings are held here; and from its central situation , the offices of the court of chancery, common pleas, and other courts of the duchy of Lancaster, unless when the officers attend the assizes at Lancaster, are also held at Preston.... ..The sessions-house and house of correction is a capacious building, enclosed within a lofty boundary wall, including every requisite accomodation for the county sessions, the meeting of the county magistrates...
In the Lancashire entry it states that the office of the court of chancery of the county palatine is at Preston, and that the court of annual general sessions is "holden at Preston on the Thursday next after the feast of St John the Baptist".
And elsewhere that the quarter sessions of the hundreds of Amounderness, Blackburn and Leyland are held at Preston.
So Preston obviously was the administrative HQ for at least part of the county. Perhaps we need to redefine "county town"? Lozleader 20:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Yorkshire in 1831
Also in Lewis: York was the county town, and was the site of the county assizes, the county gaol, and was the location for the election of kights for the shire. the records of the West Riding sessions were at Wakefield, as was the gaol. Quarter sessions were held at various locations. The quarter sessions for the East Riding were held at Beverley, and the North Riding at North Allerton (sic), and the sessions records were also kept at those towns. It doesn't call them "county towns".
So it would seem a county can (could) only have one "county town", even if it is divided into ridings or divisions. Lozleader 20:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reorganise?
Well this article is a bit of a shambles, as county town seems to mean different things at different times (and to different people).
How about splitting into sections:
- Historic counties (pre 1889) showing county towns i.e. places where the knights of the shire were elected, county assizes held, county gaol was etcetera: so just the one county town for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Suffolk, Sussex, Northamptonshire, Cambridgeshire..
- HQs of administartive counties 1889 -1974
- HQs of metropolitan counties 1974 - 1986, and of non-metropolitan counties to date.
Lozleader 21:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- That makes sense to me. We could have a big table up front for all the historic counties and only those, listing the county towns with notes for various changes such as Buckingham -> Aylesbury, followed by other tables for the county council headquarters (probably we can make do with 1 table for the administrative counties and the non-metropolitan counties both, since most of the entries would be the same). Possibly indicate the seats of pre-1888 county division administrations somehow? Morwen - Talk 23:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Radnorshire
According to [1] the county town of Rads was Presteigne, but the county council set up shop in Llandrindod Wells.Lozleader 11:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Surrey
According to The Times of October 22nd 1889, a number of the county councils had not yet decided on the permanent location for holding their meetings. In the case of Surrey, the quarter sessions met at Newington, which had been placed in the County of London by the 1888 Act. Reigate, Kingston, Epsom "and indeed other places of less significance set up claims to be allowed to offer hospitality to to the County Council". Not sure when Kingston won out. Lozleader 08:31, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's interesting. I wonder when they'd abandoned Guildford? Morwen - Talk 09:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Dunno. Apparently Newington was easier to get to. Lozleader 10:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Does that mean that Southwark was also the county town for some purposes? This is getting complicated! Lozleader 08:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
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Found a bit more in The Times: In the edition of March 27, 1890 the report of the County Buildings Committee was received. They had been instructed to find accommodation for the county council and quarter sessions within the administrative county. They did not think existing borough buildings in Kingston or Guildford were adequate. They recommended building a new county hall in Wimbledon. Other places with suitable sites were Epsom, Guildford, Surbiton, Kingston, and Redhill.
By 1897 they had moved to Kingston: the chairman of the county council wrote to the paper from the county hall there on January 9th (January 11th edition)
Lozleader 12:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Oh. According to Wikipedia County Hall was opened in 1893 County Hall (Surrey) Lozleader 13:05, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Other divisions
How about adding East Kent/Canterbury and Liberty of St Albans/St Albans? Maybe we just need a list of Quarter Sessions and areas. Morwen - Talk 22:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- According to the schedule to the Poor Prisoners Relief Act, 1813, (which listed the sums to be paid by each county for the Relief of the Prisoners in the Prisons of King's Bench, Fleet and Marshalsea) the following counties were divided, presumably for QS purposes:
- Cambridge
- County
- Isle of Ely and Town of Cambridge
- Dorset
- East Division
- West Division
- York
- East Riding
- North Riding
- West Riding
- Essex
- East Division
- West Division
- Kent
- East Division
- West Division
- Lincoln
- Holland Division
- Kesteven Do.
- Lindsay Do.
- Northampton
- East Division
- West Division
- Nottingham
- North Division
- South Division
- Somerset
- West
- East
- Suffolk
- Beccles Division
- Woodbridge Do.
- Bury St. Edmund's Do.
- Ipswich Do.
- Sussex
- East Division
- West Division
- Westmorland
- East Ward
- Kendal Ward
Lozleader 08:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ilchester
Just to make things more complicated again! Ilchester was apparently the ancient county town of Somerset. In 1831, according to Lewis, the knights for the shire were elected there, and the county gaol was also in the town. The assizes had formerly been held there, but had moved to Taunton, Wells and Bridgwater. Lozleader 09:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Trowbridge
According to Trowbridge: "In 1898 Wiltshire County Council first built offices in the town and as council services developed it expanded. In 1940 Wiltshire County Council opened County Hall and designated Trowbridge the county town of Wiltshire." No references given, though. Lozleader 10:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Apparently Trowbridge was chosen as it was easy to get to by rail. [4]Lozleader 10:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm. Trowbridge is worder stronger than that extlink - "designated as county town" rather than "moved their headquarters there". Given Trowbridge, I wonder if we can turn up any early/mid 20th century references to Preston being the county town of Lancashire. Morwen - Talk 10:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Other random things at various points are [5] saying Bala and Dolgelly joint county towns of Merioneth. [6] saying Bodmin was county town although Truro was de facto, [7] noting Newborough was county town of Anglesey having been moved from Beaumaris. and [8] claims Radnor was the county town not Presteigne Morwen - Talk 10:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Jeez
This business is insanely complicated. Is it fair to say that pre-1832, at least, the main test was location where Knights of the Shire were elected? Perhaps we should have a list of pre-1832 county towns, and then go from there? john k 13:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- From the contemporary texts, this seems to be the meaning. Later on it seems to have meant different things to different people. I'm surprised how many different places we're coming up with. I'll happily supply a list of the "election" county towns Lozleader 13:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Knights of the shire
This is a list of towns regarded as "county towns" for the election of knights for the shire in England in 1831:
- Bedfordshire: Bedford
- Berkshire: nominated at Reading, elected at Abingdon
- Buckinghamshire: Buckingham
- Cambridgeshire: Cambridge?
- Cheshire: Chester?
- Cornwall: Bodmin??
- Cumberland: Cockermouth
- Derbyshire: Derby
- Devon: Exeter
- Dorset: Dorchester
- Durham: Durham
- Essex: Chelmsford
- Gloucestershire: Gloucester
- Hampshire: Winchester
- Herefordshire: Hereford
- Hertfordshire: Hertford
- Huntingdonshire: Huntingdon
- Kent: Maidstone
- Lancashire: Lancaster
- Leicestershire: Leicester
- Lincolnshire: Lincoln
- Middlesex: New Brentford
- Monmouthshire: Monmouth
- Norfolk: Norwich
- Northamptonshire: Northampton
- Northumberland: Alnwick
- Nottinghamshire: Nottingham
- Oxfordshire: Oxford
- Rutland: Oakham
- Shropshire: Shrewsbury
- Somerset: Ilchester
- Staffordshire: Stafford
- Suffolk: Ipswich
- Surrey: Guidford
- Sussex: Chichester
- Warwickshire: Warwick
- Westmorland: Appleby
- Wiltshire: Wilton (nominated at Devizes)
- Worcestershire: Worcester
- Yorkshire: York
Wales:
- Anglesey: Beaumaris
- Brecknockshire: Brecknock
- Cadiganshire: Cardigan
- Carmarthenshire: Llandeilo Fawr (until 1832), Carmarthen thereafter
- Carnarvonshire: Carnarvon
- Denbighshire: Denbigh
- Flintshire: Flint
- Glamorgan: Bridgend (until 1832)
- Merionethshire: Harlech
- Montgomeryshire: Montgomery or Machynlleth (depending on time of year)†
- Pembrokeshire: Haverfordwest
- Radnorshire: Usually Presteigne occassionally New Radnor
Ireland:
- Antrim: Carrickfergus
- Armagh: Armagh
- Carlow: Carlow
- Cavan: Cavan
- Clare: Ennis
- Cork: Cork
- Donegal: Lifford
- Down: Downpatrick
- Dublin: Kilmainhaim
- Fermanagh: Enniskillen
- Galway: Galway
- Kerry: Tralee
- Kildare: Athy and Naas (depending on time of year)†
- Kilkenny: Kilkenny
- King's County: Tullamore transferred from Philipstown by Act of parliament 1833
- Leitrim: Carrick-on-Shannon
- Limerick: Limerick
- Londonderry: Londonderry
- Longford: Longford
- Louth: Dundalk
- Mayo: Castlebar
- Meath: Trim
- Queen's County: Maryborough
- Roscommon: Roscommon
- Sligo: Sligo
- Tipperary: Clonmel
- Tyrone: Omagh
- Waterford: Waterford
- Westmeath: Mullingar
- Wexford: Wexford
- Wicklow: Wicklow
† Elections held at the town at which the next assizes will be held
- Eep eep eep. More suprises. Cockermouth? Alnwick? Morwen - Talk 22:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- I thought Alnwick was the traditional seat of Northumberland. Cockermouth is indeed a surprise. john k 01:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
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- So did we get anywhere with this other than discovering the eel-like nature of county towns? It would be neat if we could find some historical gazetteers actually defining county town as a general term rather than just giving examples of them, which we have no shortage of! Morwen - Talk 22:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, Lewis says on a couple of occassions that elections are held at such and such a place because it is the county town... Lozleader 22:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] County capital versus county town
The term county capital is in fairly general use in Ireland, examples (none official, mind you): Tullamore [9], Navan [10], Dungarvan [11], Portlaoise [12], Cavan [13], Carlow [14], Newcastle West [15] Lozleader 22:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More oil
Alexander Stewart's compendium (published 1828) has
- Surrey - Southwark
- Cornwall - Launceston !!!
This isn't the only source which gives Launceston the county town of Cornwall - Daniel Defoe also does. Morwen - Talk 16:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- This [16] explains the transfer of County Prison and Sessions House from various sites in Southwark to Newington, London (the site of the current Inner London Crown Court) in 1791.
