Talk:Crown of Saint Stephen

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[edit] Location of the Crown

In 2005 I saw the Holy Crown in Matthias Church, however, the article claims the crown has been in the Hungarian Parliament building since 2000.

The crown in Matthias Church is an exact copy of the Holy Crown. /Joseph

[edit] Bent cross

I was wondering how the cross came to be bent, but some quick googling seems to show the matter is subject to some controversy, eg. http://www.flag.de/FOTW/flags/hu)1.html Still it seems to be a question that has interested more than just myself, and it is even officially depicted this way on the coat-of-arms, so perhaps some knowledgeable person could at least canvas the theories? -- Securiger 11:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I found that it is bent because of an accident on February 14, 1638, when the crowning ceremony of queen Maria Anna (the wife of Ferdinand III) was at hand, but due to the wrong key the seneschal brought, they couldn't open up the chest containing the crown and the other royal insignia, so it was opened up by force. Moreover, the crown got jammed so much into the smaller copper box inside that it could only be taken out from there with a knife. – They tried to straighten again the cross, but it was not possible, since its hole widened out and the cross would have slipped back to the crown. It cannot be welded, either, because the enamel plate would be damaged. (Source in Hungarian: [1].)-- Adam78 14:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

PS: I heard from a historian acquaintance of mine that there are several other theories as well, and this above is not more certain than the others.

[edit] About the loss of the Holy Crown

Lajos Csomor, master goldsmith, scholar and member of the scientific group which obtained permission to examine the Holy Crown (1988?) has some interesting facts to give us.

The once held date of 1074-77 was untenable and the loss of the Crown cannot be substantiated. Excavations from the grave of an Avar goldsmith in Kúnszentmárton, Hungary, show us what kind of tools were used to decorate a golden object during the Avar period. The result of the technical examination of the Hungarian Holy Crown shows that its technical goldsmith parallels were all prepared in the Avar age using the tools of Avar goldsmiths. Objects parallel to the Crown, such as the Little Pipin bursa, the Charlemagne vessel, the Charlemagne talisman, Charlemagne's alfa, the St. Fides statue/ St. Fides book-cover all show such a technical relationship with one another, that we have to consider them coming from the very same workshop.

"We have to emphasize the fact that these workshops were situated in the Carpathian basin and the tools employed by the above techniques were also excavated in Hungary. We can surely conclude that all objects that bear a technical relationship to the Crown arrived to Western Europe as a result of the plunderings of Charlemagne's armies and were put to different uses in his court at a later time."

In addition, the examination shows that there is no difference between the top cross section and the bottom band as far as workmanship, material or any other aspect. The whole crown was made in one workshop at the same time.

Please read these very interesting articles!

http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/96-07/csmrcrwn.html

http://chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin2f.htm

This is another lost article. It is not "said" that the crown was lost, it is a fact that it got lost. I am not going to correct this article, write any non-sense ("theory") you can find, I already got used to it from Hungarian contributors in this wikipedia...For your information, there is a "theory" for anything you can imagine. Juro 22:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

If you "Juro" would have read the article, it would have been clear to you that the "loss of the crown" only remains as a theory. My changes contribute to an article about the Holy Crown of Hungary that is simply open to other theories. The loss of the crown CANNOT be substantiated, neither can the theory of the "two" crowns. You must understand that I am open to all kind of theories. I/we can never know if the crown was lost or not. We don´t know if St. Stephen was crowned with "the present crown" or not. What we do "know" is that the crown most probably was manufactured during the Avar period, using Avar technology. It was according to Lajos Csomor made in the same workshop, at the same time. Although, all this still remains as theories.

/Joseph

Looks like we lost the crown (again) - then got a different one (again) ;-) It seems the previous image's poster (Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )) is involved in some alleged copyvio issues and the bots are out to take down everything he's posted. (the old image is still up on the Hungarian site) I pulled the new one from the German site - admittedly its not as nice as the previous one, so lets consider it a placeholder until someone either reformats this one (Im no good at that) or if you can find a better one, please put it up- kalappal! Istvan 16:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)