Talk:Curtis LeMay

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Contents 1 Minor Edit 2 comment 3 The "stone age" quote is definitely in his book 4 How many died from bombings in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia? 5 Seven Days in May 6 Accuracy 7 No Mention of Korean War 8 SAC 9 Rank and Postings 10 Comments on Japanese war crimes 11 AMIGOS

[edit] Minor Edit

It's small but important. 'Great Britain' does not grant honours, the United Kingdom does this...Great Britain is the name of the main island (there are several thousand of them) of the United Kingdom, not the name of the country. HM Government of the United Kingdom grants all military and civilian Honours and Awards.Iamlondon 01:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comment

I'm wondering if it would be appropriate or not to fold in some of McNamara's comments and recollections about LeMay during the Cuban Missile Crisis and World War II into this entry. McNamara certainly had his own POV (quite negative) but it's pretty fascinating and could of course be attributed to McNamara. In particular I"m thinking of what McNamara says about LeMay in the documentary Fog of War.... maybe I'll read up on LeMay a bit more, he's really a fantastic Cold War figure. --Fastfission 04:13, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

If LeMay didn't say "bomb Vietnam back to the stone age", then where did it come from? Googling suggests Goldwater as a possibility, but I didn't see any trustworthy source. It would be good to have the definitive answer to what's starting to look like an urban legend... Stan 04:45, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• The only mention I can find in the New York Times is from a review of Noam Chomsky's "American Power and the New Mandarins" from March 18, 1969, which reads: "His greatest criticism is aimed not against the military nor the simplistic-minded jingoists, nor against the commercial interests with stakes in military expenditures or foreign markets. He expects them to behave as they do; it's the nature of the organism. A man like Gen. Curtis LeMay who wants to bomb Vietnam back into the Stone Age receives only passing mention." The NYT does not have any other "bomb back into the Stone Age" quotes attributed to anybody else, either. This doesn't of course prove anything except that this notion about LeMay and the Stone Age has been around for some time. --Fastfission 05:20, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Nevermind, I found another quote. This one is from a New York Times review of Mission With Lemay: My Story from November 28, 1965 (in the Book Review) which quotes LeMay as saying: "My solution to the problem would be to tell [the North Vietnamese Communists] frankly that they've got to drawn in their horns and stop their aggression or we're going to bomb them into the stone age." (the parenthetical part of the quote is in the original NYT article, I did not insert it) Which seems to imply that this is a quote from his book, and is thus not completely an urban legend even if this is a different formulation than is traditionally used. I haven't seen the book though so I have no idea. --Fastfission 05:25, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Another LeMay quote from the NYT book review (man, it is great to get a ProQuest subscription through the university):

"I'd like to see a more aggressive attitude on the part of the United States. That doesn't mean launching an immediate preventive war. ... Native analysts may look sadly back from the future on that period when we had the atomic bomb and the Russians didn't... That was the era when we might have destroyed Russia completely and not even skinned our elbows doing it.... China has the bomb... Sometime in the future--25, 50, 75 years hence--what will the situation be like then? By that time the Chinese will have the capability of delivery too... That's the reason some schools of thinking don't rule out a destruction of the Chinese military potential before the situation grows worse than it is today. It's bad enough now."

From the biography section: "Area bombardment of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia led to the deaths and maimings of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians during the wars in those countries." Are there reliable sources and numbers on this? I put the qualifier "up to" before "hundreds of thousands." --Ur Wurst Enema 03:46, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The "stone age" quote is definitely in his book

. . . Mission With LeMay which was co-written with MacKinlay Kantor (the author of Andersonville). In Thomas Coffey's biography of LeMay, which was done with the cooperation of LeMay's widow, he says LeMay disclaimed this as Kantor's overwriting. But there's no reference to a print source where LeMay may have said this. And the book is generally quite fawning to LeMay.

The "stone age" passage is on pg. 565 of "Mission With LeMay." There's the suggestion that LeMay missed the passage in galley proofs, and therefore Kantor was speaking for CEL. However, it's likely that CEL endorsed the sentiment. His philosophy revolved around massive violence to end a war, saving friendly AND enemy lives. (i.e., WW II) Compare that to the "more flexible" types like Robt. Strange McNamara whose tit for tat gradualism resulted in a decade-long quagmire with escalating deaths on both/all sides.

Bill

Thanks for digging up - kept forgettng to look for hi hihihihihihihiiiiiiiiii the book in the library. The subjunctive part ("or we're going to") also makes it sound quite a bit different than the usual quote that one sees. Stan 21:33, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How many died from bombings in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia?

"Area bombardment of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia led to the deaths and maimings of up to hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians during the wars in those countries."

I have a feeling its more in the hundreds, or thousands. Not hundreds of thousands. But I've never studied that period in detail. --Havermayer 6 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)

You should go there... each YEAR - even now in 2005 - hundreds of Laotians and Cambodians die from UXOs, or unexploded ordinance. Especially children. The US dropped half a ton of muntions per person on Laos- the most bombed country in the world. Go there, you'll see the maimed people. They are hard to miss, sadly.

The topic was "area bombardment"--the only missions flown in SEA that could be described as "area" were B-52 missions. Tactical Air flew the "strategic" missions mentioned in the article (and that is a misnomer--it's mixing up World War II, Cold War, and Vietnam War terminology and it's not the same definitions). B-52s, with 729 exceptions in Linebacker II, did not bomb urban areas of North Vietnam, but jungle areas. The initial statement was gross error, and the replacement text in the article is misleading. Like the biographical information on World War II, it was poorly researched.--Buckboard 11:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The figure of an estimated 40,000 deaths in an invasion of the Japanese mainland is clearly wrong and most likely result of someone with leftish bias over-reacting to the 1 million figure. A quick look at death and casualty figures for Iwo Jima and Okinawa should make it patently obvious that any sane estimate at the time would have been closer to 1M than 40K. I hope someone with more background than I have can attend to this.

US planning was established for an average of 100,000 casualties per month from the beginning of Operations Olympic and Coronet in Nov 1945 through the fall of 1946. Initial planning numbers for total US casualties based on the Saipan Ratio were estimated at between 1.7 million and 2 million, with the figure of 500,000 commonly used in briefings as a best case estimate. Army Service Forces estimated approximately 720,000 replacements needed for dead and evacuated wounded through Dec 1946. (source: "Casualty Projections fo the U.S. Invasions of Japan, 1945-1946: Planning and Policy Implications" by D. M. Giangreco) These of course, are estimates of US casualties only. As a grim sidenote, per Maj Gen Kiyomi Masumoto, JASDF, "the old, the infant and the females fight with bamboo spear or bows and arrows in hidden corners" as a last stand in defense of the homeland.

[edit] Seven Days in May

While Dr Strangelove is certainly more famous now, the novel Seven Days in May and the corresponding film have a Curtis Lemay character front and centre. The DVD commentary for the film mentions the tensions of the period specifically.

[edit] Accuracy

Like Custer, the name LeMay evokes immediate reaction by those familiar with him. Nevertheless much of the material in this article is shoddily researched, accepted at face value even when inaccurate, and appears to rely heavily on web sources when good old fashioned books have the information sought. I corrected one such example in his World War II experiences in England. If part of it is grossly wrong, how can the rest be accepted as valid? The entire part seeming to tie LeMay to bombing in Vietnam is disturbing. If it is meant to imply he developed a mindset, that's debatable here--but Douhet had more to do with it than LeMay. LeMay's legacy to the USAF in Southeast Asia was that SAC generals instead of TAC generals (World War II bomber pilots instead of jet age fighter pilots) ran the Air Force policy when it came to Rules of Engagement and micromanagement of the air war.--Buckboard 11:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, he has been quoted about bombing SE Asia into the stone age. I realize that liberal bias extends to actual quotes - us insidious lefties are everywhere - but what in God's name are you talking about? PeteJayhawk 06:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We appreciate all input that will result in an accurate depiction. Could you please point out any other inaccuracies, I have noticed some glaring ones myself. It seems the facts/info gets murky after WW2.

[edit] No Mention of Korean War

This entry makes no reference to Curtis LeMay's role as an architect of the Korean War (1950-1953). Where that should be mentioned, the section titled "Cold War" jumps from 1949 to 1957. This is a major omission. The Korean War was the first shot of the Cold War and the most decisive world-political event after World War II. -- Samuel Kozulin, 20 September 2006

..........

The entry makes no such reference because Curtis LeMay played no such role as an "architect" of about anything in the Korean War, Samuel: LeMay spent the entirety of that conflict at home overseeing the ongoing formation of Strategic Air Command. In point of fact, he resented the drain of financial resources away from SAC that the Korean War entailed for the military, and when asked to send SAC B-29 units to help fight it, tasked his worst squadrons. He believed the Korean conflict was a "little war," and that SAC shouldn't be involved because they were training for the "Big War" with the Soviet Union. Hope that clears that particular misconception up for you.--Carthago delenda est 08:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

..........

Thank you for your response, Carthago. I am not particularly averse to correction, but let us talk about this a bit. Bruce Cumings has referred to General LeMay as an architect of the air war in Korea. Now, while LeMay did not control all strategic airplanes when they were dispatched to Korea, he did propose "under the carpet" to Pentagon officials that SAC be turned loose with incendiaries on North Korea.

That proposal was initially rejected in fear that it would result in excessive civilian casualties. But in the course of the three-year war, LeMay’s proposal was eventually implemented . . . with a bomb tonnage of 678,000 tons and some 1,300,000 civilian and military casualties in North Korea. That seems to still make him "an" architect of the air war, does it not? -- Samuel kozulin 15:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

..........

Happy to oblige, Mr. Kozulin. "Bruce Cumings" may have referred to LeMay as "architect" of the air war in Korea, and he is entitled to his opinion. However, the historical record does not sustain this belief (color me *not* surprised that, after a quick check, he turns out to be a professor in Chicago with a leftist bent).

Indeed, the historical record is clear that, if anything the air strategy pursued in the Korean War infuriated LeMay. We'll start with what LeMay himself said in his autobiography "Mission with LeMay," co-written with MacKinlay Kantor in 1965.

He relates his tangential involvement in the conflict on pages 458-464 (a total of six pages out of five-hundred and eighty one). He discusses the units he was ordered to release (even baldly stating that they were "low-priority wings"), and then goes on to state what his strategy would have been: massive strategic bombing of targets in China and Manchuria along the order of what he had previously done in Japan.

He then says flatly that "we didn't get anywhere with the idea." After philosophizing a bit on the puzzles (to him) of the "Oriental" mind, including telling several anecdotes, he wraps the matter up by recounting the total number of casualties on both sides, and hints in conclusion that had his strategy been adopted "That war...could have been terminated almost as soon as it began. I will always believe this."

Whatever Bruce Cumings might think, LeMay didn't consider himself an "architect" of about anything during the Korean conflict: indeed, he found "infuriating" the fact that his plans were given short shrift.

Thus with what LeMay himself had to say about his involvement in the Korean War.

We then turn to John Toland's "In Mortal Combat, 1950-1953," a definitive (and reputable) one volume account of the conflict. Curtis LeMay's name appears not once in its 624 pages.

A check of "Four Stars: The inside story of the forty-year battle between the Joint Chiefs of Staff and America's civilian leaders" by Mark Perry shows LeMay's name first surfaces on page 74: the events of the Korean War were dealt with by the author starting on page 22 through page 48. LeMay factors into nothing of importance even worth a mention regarding the Korean conflict by the author.

I could go on (and will be happy to, if you wish), but the bottom line is that Curtis LeMay, whatever else he was an "architect" of during his extraordinary career, was a bit player, *at best*, during the conflict that you want edit him in as an "architect" of. He may, indeed, have been such an architect--but I have yet to see a reputable published source regarding the Korean War make such a claim. That is the key: reputable, published source. Find one and I'll be happy to listen.Carthago delenda est 23:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

..........

Thank you again for the response, Carthago. Please do not take anything here personally. I am not. My reference to Curtis LeMay’s proposal to the Pentagon to drop incendiaries on North Korean towns is taken from his interview in Strategic Air Warfare (United States Air Force, 1988). These are his own words from the interview: “Right at the start of the war, unofficially I slipped a message in ‘under the carpet’ in the Pentagon that we ought to turn SAC loose with incendiaries on some North Korean towns” (p. 88). This proposal was initially rejected, but later adopted.

You are correct to say that he ordered “low-priority wings” to Korea. Again, here are his words: “We picked the low-priority outfits, the lowest ones on the totem pole. [. . .] Because I did not want to destroy the capability that we had built up for a strategic war if we had to go to war” (p. 87). Perhaps if LeMay’s plan to bomb North Korea is not mentioned in his co-authored Mission with LeMay (1965), this is either omission by accident or design. As for John Toland’s lack of reference to LeMay even once in In Mortal Combat (1991), this reflects a shortcoming of his method.

Apparently, the problem of LeMay and the Korean air war is that, officially, his contribution to its planning is interpreted by a particular school of historians as not particularly significant, and is subsumed under the names of Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg, Lt. Gen. George E. Stratemeyer, Maj. Gen. Emmet O’Donnell, Jr., and others.

Regarding Professor Bruce Cumings, he is an authoritative name in Korean Studies and Korean War history and is a well-known representative of the so-called “revisionist school.” All historians have political leanings, just as they have shortcomings. But what is most important is method. So, this is not an issue about Cumings per se, but an issue of historiographical science. His reference to LeMay as an “architect” of the air war is a very challenging proposition. But it is not insupportable and it questions an official paradigm of Korean War history and its actors and supporting actors.

Anyway, this is academic and interesting, but let us not drag things out. I suggest that the Curtis E. LeMay entry on Wikipedia should simply state that LeMay did play some role in the Korean War, though the extent of his role as one of the architects of the air war is under debate. -- Samuel kozulin 14:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

............

I agree completely with the suggested edit in your final paragraph, Mr. Kozulin: that seems the perfect way to handle this very debatable area of LeMay's career. Carthago delenda est 01:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

.............

Strike my previous paragraph: having just finished an exhaustive search and/or review of numerous reputable published sources, all primary texts, regarding the Air Campaign during the Korean War, there is not to be found a scintilla of evidence that General LeMay had anything other than an extremely tangential - at best - role in the way airpower was used during that conflict. Any attempt to edit the article to indicate that General LeMay was some kind of "architect" or hidden hand mastermind or whatever else it is he supposedly did and/or was during the Korean War (according to revisionist historians of Professor Cumings non-neutral POV stripe), will be immediately reverted. Thanks. Carthago delenda est 19:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SAC

the page says:

He is credited with designing and implementing an effective systematic strategic bombing campaign in the Pacific Theatre of Strategic Air Command.

SAC was not formed till after WW2, on 21 March 1946 according to the wikipedia SAC article. Perhpas some one knows the proper command structure during WW2 and can fix.

[edit] Rank and Postings

Lemay went through many ranks and postings. Would it be good to have a section that lists them in chronological order along the lines of the decorations section? This might help people better understand his career in a concise format.

[edit] Comments on Japanese war crimes

The few sentences before LeMay suggests he would be tried of war crimes if the US lost the war talk about the way the Japanese treated shot down American pilots. They seem out of place as what the Japanese did isn't in the least bit related to LeMay. He didn't bomb Tokyo because of Japanese war crimes (or its not mentioned in the article if he did) and the Japanese didn't commit war crimes because of LeMay's actions. Someone probably put that there to justify LeMay's actions but I don't think we're not supposed to justify actions just describe them. What do others think of this? Hammy 12:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Unacceptable - and any such changes will be immediately reverted. The reason the bit about the American pilots being executed is included has nothing to do with "justifying" LeMay's actions during the bombing campaign he conducted against Japan - indeed, they do not need "justification" as he was carrying out the lawful orders of his superiors during a legitimately declared war. The reason is to highlight a historical fact associated with LeMay's bombing campaign, to wit, that the Japanese executed many of the pilots from his command that they captured. Only 262 survived, in fact, to be liberated after the war's conclusion. This is a small, but essential, part of the objective history of LeMay's career. Thanks. Carthago delenda est 15:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Wwahammy, I agree with you, particularly regarding the objectivity of this statement:

"LeMay referred to his nighttime incendiary attacks as "fire jobs." The Japanese nicknamed him "Demon LeMay". In violation of the rules of war, like the fire bombings themselves, shot-down B-29 aircrews were frequently tortured and executed when captured by both Japanese civilians and military."

I would think that Wikipedia would require a source footnote if the author of the article is going on record as calling the fire bombings of Japan a violation of the rules of war.(Historical fact? Where?) Would that mean that the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki also would fall under such "rules"? That smacks of revisionist history to me. Wikipedia prides itself on remaining neutral and non-political in its entries. This particular entry on Curtis LeMay doesn't do Wikipedia much service with respect to that standard.

--Seo122 20:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"Agree" all you wish, but any changes along the lines "Hammy" suggests will be immediately reverted. General LeMay committed no "war crimes" in the sense that the term was understood in 1945, and any suggestion that he did so is not only ahistorical and revisionist, but also in violation of NPOV. Carthago delenda est 21:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Carthago, thanks for making my point for me. I merely wanted to know how the statement about the U.S. fire bombings being a violation of the rules of war could be allowed to remain in the article under the Neutral Point of View rules. I don't know who you are, or what your role/affiliation with Wikipedia is, but it appears you have taken ownership of this particular Wikipedia entry, so you're more than welcome to pull rank. I just don't like the smarmy bits as addressed above in my complaint, and feel they do Wikipedia a great disservice under the NPOV.

--Seo122 00:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to to cleanup the "smarmy bits" of this entry as you see fit; I have no objection and, more importantly, no special authority of any kind to override such efforts. What would be objected to, and reverted, is an attempt to turn this biography into an ongoing debate about the "morality" of the War as it was waged against the Axis Powers by such as Curtis LeMay and other Allied officers during World War II. That is what has been suggested - by "Hammy," among others - and is precisely what will be reverted. Thanks. Carthago delenda est 05:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AMIGOS

Ámigos

Nosotros tenemos... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.125.203.64 (talk) 00:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC).