Talk:Cynicism
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Doesn't the use of the word bullshit (..tend to dismiss a substantial proportion of popular beliefs and accepted wisdom as bullshit...) make this entry NPOV? I agree with the gist of the sentence, but couldn't come up with a better description. Anyone else? --Frecklefoot 15:20 19 May 2003 (UTC)
- The sentence states what cynics "tend to do", which is not agreeing or disagreeing with their POV, just stating what it usually is. However I wrote the original article and I am a committed cynic so there may well be POV elements which need correcting. LordK 20/5/03
The word also has a meaning of immoral. This meaning should be added. This is different from the meaning in the article although there may be an overlap for some individuals. Andries 10:06, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
i would like to support the previous post. I believe that in modern usage an important use of the concept of cynicism is to describe a misleading, immoral tactic to further one's own ends, such as politicians and public figures (and corporations) appealing to ideals such as patriotism, humanity, compassion to further other agendas 64.122.105.234 21:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC) (sky)
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[edit] Refusal to listen to rational arguments
Not only that, but the word can also mean someone who refuses to listen to your reasons and would rather just believe their own, often negative, version of your opinion. For example, "I don't like puns..." "Why?" "Because they make me sneeze." "That's because you need a sense of humour." "No... I just don't like it." "No, you need a sense of humour!"
Sorry I can't explain that any better... I may be wrong altogether. If someone agrees with me then say that you do, and I may even put this definition in the article. --huwr 10:55, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Huwr, I don't know how to include this suggestion ("refusing to listen to rational arguments"?)in the article. Besides I have doubts about the veracity of your suggestion. Andries 11:13, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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- So do I, now. After looking up 'cynical' in the Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary (third edition, if anyone cares.) it says "sneering, mocking" as the third definition. So it means more of an 'obnoxiously disagreeing', than 'refusing to rationalise'. The other two are just what is already in this article.--huwr 06:27, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
anthistenes ,founder of the "cynic school",understood ,by following the teachings of his master socrates,that the naked truth is that there is no absolute truth and intrinsic goodness in the universe; therefore the only thing we know is that we know nothing , and virtue or goodness must be achieved because is not granted. this realisation is painful , and anthistenes took it very seriously. thats why his followers and himself became fanatics and were rejected and ridiculed by the majority , even by socrates. it was diogenes,disciple of anthistenes,who later on came to the same realisation, but he took it with humour and compassion instead,seeing how ridiculous the "human situation" actually is: "like that one of the dog trying to catch his own tail"...and he became enlightened. diogenes ,after his enlightenment,travelled around greece almost naked ,enjoying the warm weather,the sun and the beaches and gathering around him thousands of pilgrims who listened to his hillarious talks pregnant with sarcastic remarks about society and a sharp sense of humour. even the emperor alexander "the great", on his way to conquer india, came to him once; but with a sense of "resignation" he couldn´t take diogenes advice of dropping at once his conquering desires ,because alexander "believed" that "his destiny" was already written. alexander died two years later. when diogenes died a "dog" (symbol of cynicism) was carved on his thombstone . the dog symbol has the "positive" hilarious connotation of the koan of "the dog trying to catch his own tail" (also symbolic of diogenes enlightenment) ; and not the "negative" or "pessimistic" one of "the angry barking dog" that most neophytes adjudicate to the cynics because of anthistenes attitude towards life. as a matter of fact diogenes" probably" was and still is the first and only true "cynic" (Guruyatri/12:25/okt12.06)
[edit] Reason for deletion of "The Best Page in the Universe"
I saw no references to cynicism. The site appeared to be a collection of self-professed "angry thoughts" and "things that piss me off", which is all very good, but isn't exactly cynicism. The link in question is http://maddox.xmission.com/ . --Ds13 20:44, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Just because the site doesn't refer to cynicism directly, doesn't mean it's not an good example of cynicism in practice! You see examples all over of his cynicism, here's one; "Who the hell are all these people who listen to sports talk anyway? None of it matters you morons. Nobody cares what Jim Rome thinks about some football player's salary. Choke already." (Quote of Maddox). That is only one example, there are more - And it's basically, behind the angry masquarade, a world-weary cynicism "What you do won't matter, so just give up. Your vote means nothing, your grades don't mean shit..." etc. Therefore, I think it should stay. --OleMurder 15:38, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- You point about not referring to cynicism directly is taken; I agree it could still be an example. I still think anger and egotism is the distracting quality of that site, overshadowing the cynicism somewhat, but lacking other external examples I think it should be added back now, also. What do you think about labelling/qualifying the link somewhat in its description? --Ds13 18:54, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An site exampling great world-weary cynicism, anger and egoism. Good to see you agreein', tho...must be my (lacking) convincing skills. Heh.--OleMurder 16:00, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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- Maddox' site is an exercise in satire, not cynicism. It is like http://shelleytherepublican.com/ - good enough to make you wonder how much exactly is supposed to be joking and what's serious. --TheOtherStephan 03:56, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't think maddox's site is satire. There aren't many people like him around to make fun of and what he writes seems like his own thoughts. 24.154.173.50 02:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Removal of merger template with cynic
I removed the merger template because the ancient school of philosophy is too different from the current meaning of the word. Andries 10:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Woohoo! I'm proud to be profoundly cynical and nihilistic! I believe my liver is diseased.... — BRIAN0918 • 2005-08-11 19:38
The last paragraph about the behavioral indication of profound cynicism should be removed as not up to the standards of the rest of the article. (1) There are other reasons besides cynicism to not get involved in "defending principles", therefore this behavior (if such it can be called) is not a sure sign of cynicism. The next two sentences speak vaguely of involvement, but not all involvment is in "defense of principles". This is poor writing and not accurate.
This article is a good start, but needs some specific info (so-and-so wrote such-and-such)... without such actual reporting of who is saying what about cynicism, this is an opinion piece. -- Chira 02:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Quote
'Cynics themselves tend to take this view, regarding themselves as enlightened free thinkers, and their critics as deluded social pretenders who "bury their heads in the sand."' -A citation/documentation is needed for this quote. I mean, who or what are you quoting anyways??
I think that particular editor was referring to an old saying/metaphor with "bury their heads in the sand", partly to indicate it as a metaphor and partly to add a slight element of sarcasm. I did some editing of that, feel free to do whatever you wish (within the Wikipedia guidelines of course lol) with it. Brad 01:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Totally off topic (but not really) ... found this great quote by George Bernard Shaw: "The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it." JubalHarshaw 20:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Devil's Dictionary
The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce, 1911, sub voce "cynic":
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
-- Ziusudra 13:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Virtue:
Is it not true that the Cynics, in ancient Greece, taught that virtue constitutes happiness and that self-control is the essential part of virtue.
Hence i think that some revision/modification needs to be made to-
"Presently the word generally describes, somewhat pejoratively, the opinions of those disinclined to believe in human sincerity, in virtue, or in altruism: individuals who maintain that only self-interest motivates human behavior."
Taken care of. Brad 15:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutral Point of View
It seems as if this writer is more of a non-cynisist or almost anti-cynisist because the point of veiw conveys a mostly negative attitude towards this ideal and way of thinking. Also, the page seems a bit scrambled together with no real sources and more of an opinion/common attitude towards the explanation of Cynicism. I would suggest a re-write, but I do not have enough knowledge of the subject to do it myself. Anyone?
From TFA: "It can be argued that an excess of cynicism actually leads to a disassociation from reality, because it leads to easy rejection of hard answers." - Not a shining example of Neutrality, and with no supporting documentation that this in fact the case.
- I agreed with the criticizm of the sentence: it's an editorial remark. I deleted it. The writer may have been thinking instead of paranoia. Although a good rough draft, the article as it now stands is indeed an opinion piece, not an encyclopedia article. I think that with some heavy editing to remove the imbedded point of view, it could be brought up to the standard for the Wikipedia. Tom Lougheed 21:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I added some statements and replaced a broken link, and also added a couple references. It's not much but it's a start. I might do more later. Feel free to do some editing of my edits of course if you find them improper or insufficient. This is a difficult article to edit on an encyclopedia, as they are intended to present reliable factual content, and in the case of cynicism it largely depends on either well thought out or flawed logic, as the article itself is about a pioint of view. Brad 00:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Huh?
What is the point of this statement in the article:
- " They want to see the world for how it is (or how they perceive it to really be) rather than delude themselves."
It makes no sense to me and seems to be NPOV (by calling cynics deluded). 14 May 2006
- Actually, if you dig through the sentence, it actually claims that the cynics reject delusion. But the tortured nature of the article makes it hard to get which way the wind is blowing. I suspect that the current bad state of the article is from an anti-cynic and a cynic who have been using the article to argue with each other via the Wikipedia. Both authors are representing opposite, and non-neutral points of view. Tom Lougheed 21:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
- Isn't being cynical the same as taking a negative belief about things rather than the positive one? -Wikipedia-fan
cyn·i·cism (sn-szm) n. An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others: the public cynicism aroused by governmental scandals. That was taken from [http://www.dictionary.com) Originally cynicism was the doctorate/philosophy of a group of ancient Greeks called the Cynics, which pronoted self-control and independance, or in general, virtue, is the only good. The modern definition is as I referenced above, a sort of skepticism about the values and motives of others, I suppose you could say, pessimism regarding human nature. Ever read Lord Of The Flies? That book is a good example of a cynical message about society.
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- I think you are referring more to Misanthropy--the view that human beings are inherently "bad." Cynicism is a more of a general attitude to the world, that....well, I might as well do a little re-writing of the article. Cynicism is the view that things in the world are usually not as they seem, but rather more suspect. The cynic will tend to be suspicious whenever he reads of a "nice" person or deed, but not suspicious when he hears of another unmasking of a corrupt politician/businessman. 66.108.106.230 18:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Antisthenes or Anthistenes
I don't think it matters too much which way the name is transcribed, but for consistency's sake I would suggest picking one and sticking with it instead of changing it up each time the old wise man is mentioned.Slothicm 21:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)slothicm
[edit] Humor :)
Cynicism is a hallway poster that says, "Question everything!"
Extreme cynicism is a post-it note that is stuck to the poster and that says, "Why?"
Kevinkor2 17:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What fool wrote this article?
Yet another poor Wikipedia article. It actually thinks it's pro-cynicism, when what it thinks is cynicism is actually skepticism (something much different). Any citing this article for a paper on cynicism in an English 101 class would get an "F" if it were up to me.--Rotten 13:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
