Talk:Dative case
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I don't see what Tsez has to do in this article. While I appreciate the addition, I believe that it serves no purpose to explain the dative of a language that only 7000 people in the world can understand. Mixaelus 20:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- In my opinion it's a good example to show for what the dative case is used in other non-IE languages, in this case, it also has a local function, and it's used for subjects with verbs of perception and feeling. This works similar with other Northeast Caucasian languages, perhaps also with Northwest ones... I'm not sure, but this could even be a common feature among absolute/ergative languages. Thus, it represents far more than just 7000 speakers. I just happen to know more about Tsez than about any other Caucasian or ergative language. — N-true 21:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I gave the rest of the examples for Greek. The dative in Greek has other locative/temporal functions as well, which I should be adding soon. For the time being, however, please correct as you see appropriate. Mixaelus 20:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The article for "Indirect object" links here, but no example of the distinction between direct and indirect object is given....
I added the example of "the dativus instrumenti" in Classical Greek. If it's inaccurate, please do fix it. Thanks -Yazeed.
Now that I added the bit about "methinks" as an example of dative case in English, I find myself doubting whether I should have done so. Is it not an example of excessive anglocentrism? While this Wikipedia's primary language is English, it may seem a bit presumptuous to illustrate perfectly universal categories and topics (such as "dative case") with examples from the English language. Or not? I'm not sure. --AV
"This is the English Wikipedia". While there are probably many multilingual users, English is the only language we should assume that the readers possess. Examples in English *are* most universal, given that assumption.
I'm also of the opinion that provoking people to think more about the structures and idiosyncracies of their native language is a good thing. -- Paul Drye
I think the English "methinks" is a bit of a historical oddity, and while it is useful as a historical tidbit, it is a confusing example. I think giving an example from Latin, or some other language with cases (Russian, Finish, etc. -- take your pick) would be more useful. Especially since the Old English that "methinks" derives from is probably different from the modern word "methinks". -- SJK
The main page says that the Dative has dissapeared from English grammar. This I'd agree with only in the sense that the dative has no inflection distinct from the accusative case. It occurs in such sentences as 'He gave me it' and 'He built me a snowman'. I boths examples 'me' is dative. -- Karl Palmen
Who says "he gave me it"? That sounds (to my ears, anyway) really colloquial and ungrammatical. Or is it just me?
Colloquial, yes. Awkward, yes. But it is indeed grammatical. You would say, for example, "he gave me that", which is an identical construction with a different pronoun. --LDC
Everyone says "he gave me it" or at any rate "he gave me one", "he gave me that", "he gave me more than I asked for", "she wrote me a letter", etc. Why do you think that it is it awkward? I use sentences like "My wife bought me a doughnut" all the time (dative "me"). Are you saying that you would use "My wife bought a doughnut for me" in preference ? Surely not. -- Derek Ross
- Of course not, and you missed my point. I replaced "He gave me it" with "He gave me that" in the example in the article, because "He gave me it" is very awkward and colloquial. The other uses of the dative "me" that you specified are not colloquial or awkward, and are perfectly legitimate in formal speech.
Yes, that's probably the best thing to do. I have no idea why people don't generally say "he gave me it" when it is parallel to the other examples. Ask Steven Pinker or George Lakoff. --LDC
- I think you'll find that the answer to any question that begins with "I wonder why English...." is "Because English is a mess." :) -- Paul Drye
I sometimes use "he gave me it", but not very often. I use "he gave it me" as well, missing out the "to".
Also,
- Roughly 25% of German verbs, generally those pertaining directly to an act of giving, require the dative for their direct objects.... Ich gebe ihr... ("I give her...")
I may be wrong, but at least in this example isn't ihr the indirect object, with whatver's being given the direct object? --195.188.51.100 14:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The examples using geben and sagen are both incorrect. In each case, the objects cited are in the dative because they are INdirect objects. This is obvious, because neither example makes sense without also having a direct object (in the accusative). "Ich gebe ihr (ind obj:dative) das Buch (dir obj:akk)" and "Sag uns (ind obj:dat) deine Telefonnummer (dir obj:akk)". In both cases, the direct object could be an entire subordinate clause.
While there are German verbs that have (apparently) direct objects in the dative, I believe that most verbs pertaining to giving require both indirect and direct objects, in the dative and accusative cases, respectively.
From the front page today: "The name Éire is the dative form in modern Irish Gaelic of the name for the goddess Eriu, a mythical figure who aided the Gaels conquer Ireland as described in the Book of Invasions."
I did not see Gaelic or Irish on the list. (What about Scottish?) I leave it to the experts here to work out the details. Leonard G. 04:34, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] First sentence wrong?
The first sentence indicates that the dative case is used to mark a direct object. However, the rest of the article implies that the dative case is used for the indirect object! Someone who knows a bit more about this should clarify this. Perhaps a section comparing the dative and accustive cases would be in order, along with their correlations with direct and indirect objects. --Scorpiuss
[edit] German examples
The two German examples given in the article, while not technically incorrect, are somewhat awkward:
- Ich gebe das Buch zum Kassierer
- Ich habe das Buch an meinen Freund geschenkt.
A German speaker would say neither of these things - rather, they'd say "Ich gebe das Buch dem Kassierer" and "Ich habe das Buch meinem Freund geschenkt". -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 22:25, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
