Talk:David

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
	This article is supported by the Royalty and nobility work group.

An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article, or the current infobox may need to be updated. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.

	David is part of the WikiProject Saints, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Saints on Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to saints as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to saints. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

/Archive001

Contents 1 Historical evidence 2 In Christianity 3 Map of kingdom of David 4 Birth and early life 5 Adultery 6 Revisions to the Summary section 7 Improving the article 8 David and Mormonism 9 King David...a redhead? 10 Islam template

[edit] Historical evidence

Can anyone put any historical evidence on this article?

Positions on Jerusalem cites 1004 BCE and King David as crucial in determining Israel's right to Jerusalem. Is there any evidence for the year 1004 BCE?

Johnbibby 21:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The section "Historicity of David" gives a good overview of the non-Biblical information on David. It doesn't amount to much - a disputed inscription mentioning the "House of David" is about the most solid evidence we have for the very existence of David (outside the Bible itself), but it dates from some centuries after the supposed lifetime of David and can't be used to obtain a date. The 1004 date comes from counting backwards from various other dates in the Bible - reigns of various kings, mostly. The trouble with that is that there are too many things happening in periods of 40 years to be credible (David himself is said to have reigned 40 yerars, for example - one of many times this period of years crops up). PiCo 02:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The hebrew words for "many" and "forty" were very similar, and would often be used interchangably. Hebrew is a language that is generally strong in metaphor but weak in precision. ("The World May Know" DVD set, Vanderlaan) Swift99 06:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Christianity

This section does not fit its title. Not only does it begin with an anthropological, as opposed to a theological or historical, perspcetive which no Christian (or Jewish) beliver would maintain (i.e. that both stem from the "Jebusite Zion cult"), but the only reference given is from a strongly Messianic website. To head the section with "In Christianity" means that the section should, at the least, be formed around the union of common perspcetives of primary Christian sects (e.g. Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholicism or mainline Protestantism). This needs to be drastically altered to reflect, not an athropological or myopically Messianic view, but one that is much more indicative of historic christian theology. Otherwise, the section needs to be re-titled. I'm willing to do this myself, but would appreciate input from others on the validity of my comments here and if you agree then what the content should be.

This section is essentially a summary of the relevant part of the article on King David in the current edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica - definitely not a Messianic website. Did you actually look at the reference? PiCo 12:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It appears that I clicked on the wrong note by accident. My bad. The actual link is relevant... except for that it is still true that the current text in this section is a conjecture-based, athropological understading of David as someone who "took over the Zion cult" which has nothing to do with his image within Christianity (or Judaism) as to how his person and life fit into their understanding of history and theology. The biblical account, which I might add is the only extant account, speaks absolutely nothing to the adoption of the cultus of another people, but that David becomes established as king under the same same Hebrew religion that came out of Egypt. While the current text might be appropriate for the historicity section - perhaps even to show how the biblical account theologically meets up at this point with the Zion cult - it just doesn't fit in "David In Christianity".

I am going to submit an example of how I would like this to be rewritten sometime this weekend and would like some review...

I wish you'd sign your posts (four tildes, the snake-like objects just under the Esc key on the keyboard). If you're the same person who objects to the boiled-down EB paragrpah describing Christianity and David, I can only point out that the theme or point of that para is that Christians see David as the beginning of a divine bloodline leading to Jesus (and that this concept of a divine king was taken by David from the Jebusites of Salem - an idea I personally doubt, but who am I to argue with the EB). Anyway, edit away and let's see. PiCo 09:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the section title should simply be changed to "In the Encyclopedia Brittanica" or perhaps "Contemporary academic perspectives" or similar. That would seem to solve the problem. If this is the current edition or any edition under copyright we should make sure the content isn't simply being plagiarized --Shirahadasha 04:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

"In Christianity" is fine. So is the use made of the EB - it's an attributed summary of the idea contained in a few paras of a far longer article, not a long and unattributed quote. And we have to have sources, we can't just make things up or put down personhal thoughts. What would be nice would be (a) more things toi say about Christian ideas on David, and (b) more sources. As for the first, I'm afraid that, apart from the messianic descent of Jesus, there's not much to say. But if you can find it, say away. PiCo 08:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

lead image was replaced, but I moved it back. The section where David's statue appeared mentioned it explicitly and it's more appropriate there. Pico, the reason I added LMLK seal is because this dates to the first Temple and it means "KING", seems very interesting for a see also in the article of Israel's most famous king of roughly the same era. Amoruso 18:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't have any strong objection to the LMLK seal, so put it back if you want. PiCo 02:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I had a look at the LMLK article and didn't see any mention of David. Was this actually used when David was king or later?-Crunchy Numbers 16:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Nobody knows, since no seals from David's time have been discovered. PiCo 01:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map of kingdom of David

I deleted a map (fairly recently added) which said it showed the extent of David's kingdom at his death. My reason for doing so is that it comes from a personal website run by someone called Rusty Russel (see http://www.bible-history.com/biblehistoryonline_aboutbho.php). Not that I have anything against Rusty Russell, but he admits that he's no academic, just a man of faith. Faith is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't produce good maps. We need something more solid than this. PiCo 06:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth and early life

I added the section of "Birth and early life." The next day it was deleted by PiCo on the grounds that it is "all very controversial and based on assumptions rather than the biblical text." I disagree with PiCo that it is based on assumption. Every single point given is straight from the biblcial text: He was the son of Jesse (Ruth 4:22; Matthew 1:6); descendant of Judah (Genesis 46:12-Ruth 4:18-22; Matthew 1:3-6) great-grandson of Ruth (Ruth 4:13,17; Matthew 1:5-6); Ruth immigrated with her mother-in-law (Naomi)from Moab to Israel (Ruth 1:16,19); David was possibly born illegitimately (Psalm 51:5); called Elhanan as late as when killed Goliath (2 Samuel 21:19). If all of this is controversial, sorry—it's straight from the biblical text. I am reinstating the section. —Keith H. 23:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Keith, the material on David's descent is already in the article (see the section "David's Family"). (Incidentally, to speak of Ruth "immigrating" is anachronistic - their were no border controls in those days, no paperwork to be done, no Green Cards to collect). I hope you can agree that there's no need to repeat this material. More contentious is the rest of your proposed addition. First, the idea of David's being born illegitimately is highly unlikely - you'll be aware that under Deuteronomistic law an illegitimate child was not admitted to the congregation, a prohibition so strong that it applied to the tenth generation. Psalm 51:5 appears to refer instead to the fact that all men are conceived in sin and born in pain - a reference to Genesis and the expulsion from Eden. (It's beside the main point, but this is why this text became the basis for the beautiful Miserere transcribed by Mozart). As for the Elhanan reference, it's not textual - nowhere will you find a line that says "David was known in his youth as Elhanan," or anything like it. The section is headed "Scriptural Acount of David's Life" - in other words, it sticks very closely to the text, in order to avoid controversy. For these reasons I'm reverting your addition. PiCo 03:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adultery

The King James version of 2:Samuel 11:3-4:

And David sent and enquired after the woman. And [one] said, [Is] not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?

And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house>

Lying with another man's wife is adultery. I do not believe there is any doubt about the accuracy of this translation; and if so, the article text should remain and the doubt be explained. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

But of course, an editor's personal reading of the Bible cannot be accepted by Wikipedia as a reliable source to resolve a content dispute. The Talmud, for example, reads this same passage quite differently. It claims that Uriah had given Bathsheba a Get prior to going to battle to prevent her from becoming an Agunah in the event he became missing in action, as Talmudic law prescribes for soldiers in Jewish armies prior to going into battle. It held that David was entitled to rely on this Get. Any contrary view would have be sourced to some notable commentator. There is a genuine dispute here. It simply doesn't matter whether one believes one is right or not. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I see an edit war developing here and would like to head it off. Shirahadasha is correct in saying the Talmud doesn't regard David's act as adultery - but the Talmud is only an opinion on the meaning of the passage - it should be mentioned under "Jewish tradition", or whatever that section is called, but can't be taken as authoritative. Likewise in Islam, David, being a Prophet of God, is seen as incapable of any morally reprehensible act - and again, the proper place to mention this is in the "Islamic tradition" section. For user Rebroad, I would point out that a personal user page is not the place to reach consensus on edits to an article - that's what article talk pages are for. (I hadn't even been aware of any on-going discussion on that user page). Anyway, here's my proposal: My concept of the Summary section is that it should simply report the text of the Torah story, without explanation or gloss. When I wrote this paragraph, (yes, it's originally my work), I simply assumed that David's act was adultery, both because that's the traditional reading in Christian circles, (like everyone else, I'm the prisoner of my traditions), and because it seems to me, as to to user Pmanderson, to be the plain meaning of the text (what else was Nathan talking about, and what else could have "displeased YHWH"?) Nevertheless, it's true that the text doesn't mention adultery (not even in Hebrew), and on closer reading there are other things that could have been disturbing Nathan and God, notably David's encompassing the death of Uriah, which was tantamount to murder. (But in that case, why kill the child as a punishment? - so I still incline personally to the adultery theory). Anyway, to keep to my originally aim of sticking scrupulously to the text, I propose that the contentious sentence be changed to something along the lines of David lying with B/sheba - it could even take the form of a direct quote: "David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her." That leaves room for further note of the various traditional readings in the appropriate sections below. PiCo 03:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Shirahadasha is indeed correct. An interpretation of the bible does not consitute a credible source. However, there would be nothing wrong in including a source that states which groups interpret the bible in this way, and adapting the text to make it clear that this is an interpretation by those groups, rather than stating it as a fact as it is currently worded. --Rebroad 15:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, I have now made this compromise edit, and I hope this is something that everyone can be happy with. If it needs re-wording slightly please feel free, but please ensure to stay away from personal interpretations, and always cite sources if it's likely to be disputed. Thanks! --Rebroad 15:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

"Some Christian groups" is an enormous understatement. This is the plain meaning of the text (if memory serves, it is endorsed by a free-thinking Jew, in writing a commentary on the Bible). It is the quibblers who should be identified. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Since it seems that some editors cannot refrain from tendentious and illiterate edits, I have repaired the violation of English idiom and marked it as worthless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It's true that what the Talmud says is only an opinion about the passage, just as it's true that what a Wikipedia editor says is also only an opinion. The difference is that the Talmud is a WP:reliable source for a notable body of thought, while a Wikipedia editor's opinion is not. Doubtless there are numerous Christian (and a number of liberal Jewish) commentators who treat the event as adultery; no-one's doubting that. The issue is that Wikipedia can't say which side is right and which side wrong in the presence of a religious dispute. We have to use neutral language and then note that the different religious traditions have developed different commentaries about this text, and then present each view. No-one can deny that the viewpoints of both traditional Judaism and traditional Islam, both of which differ from the traditional Christian view, repreent notable religious viewpoints. Wikipedia editors aren't entitled to say one viewpoint is correct just because they personally think it better reflects their reading of the text. --Shirahadasha 22:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

And we have a sentence on the Talmud's view - or rather, on one view in the Talmud, which expresses multiple views on most topics it covers. One Wikipedia's editor's view on what the Talmud says is not a reliable source; nor does it justify calling all other views (including the meaning of the text without exebisis) goyish. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Attribution and WP:NPOV come into play only in the presence of an identified dispute. If there were a dispute about what the Talmud said, then I'd certainly agree I couldn't offer my own opinion as the correct view if a reliable source says otherwise. However, you haven't offered a reliable source who says that what there is a dispute about what the Talmud says on this issue, whereas the existence of a dispute on what the Bible says is clearly reliably sourced. That's the difference. --Shirahadasha 23:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Also, don't understand what you meant be "calling all other views...goyish", never said that. Without any exegesis at all, we have squiggly marks on a piece of paper; exegesis tells us that the marks were intended to have a meaning and what the squiggles mean. --Shirahadasha 23:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The present footnote suggests that the view that David was adulterous is uniquely Christian, which is unsourced, and incredible. One cite from the Talmud, as yet unspecified btw, cannot show that. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten the first section of the paragraph in question to bring it closer to Shirahadasha's guideline regarding the Summary section, that it should reflect the wording of the text itself, without interpretations. (I can't find now where he says this, but I think itight be in an edit summary on the main page). I've made Bathsheba's erlationship with Uriah (i.e., that she is his wife) into a direct quote from the text - in fact, on a quick reading, the text says 3 times that B. is Uriah's wife, the last time, 2 Sam. 9, being the words of YHWH himself). I've deleted the footnote, as the Talmudic tradition that she was technically not';' his wife is too important to be buried away like that - it belongs under the section now headed "David in later Abrahamic tradition", under the section on Judaism. Incidentally, it also needs to be moer percisely identified in that section, with a reference to just where in the Talmud this traditoin is to be found. I hope we are getting closer to a solution on this, though I'm sure we haven't arrived yet, such being the emotions involved.PiCo 03:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revisions to the Summary section

I've made some revisions to the summary section which I hope other editors will look at kindly. Perhaps the most obvious s that I've turned the narrative part into present tense. The reason for this is stylistic: it markes the words of the summar (present te4nse) from the direct quotes from the text (normal tense).

The other major alteration is the addition of a subsection on David playing the lyre befoer Saul. I did this because the theme is an important one in Western art - the famous painting by Rembrandt, for example, which is illustrating the article. (As an aside, it's very difficult deciding what should go into the summary and what can be ledft out. The David story is full of incidents, and it's impossible to include them all. My guyiding preinciple has been to include those which are important to the story itself, and those which are important because they've entered into Western art and literature).

I've also made some revisions to the details here and there. Mostly this has been aimed at saving space. But I've diivided one existing subsection into three, on Jerusalem, the Covenant, and David's kingdom, because all three are important to the story.

Grateful for comments. PiCo 06:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improving the article

Anybody have any ideas/suggestions on how to improve the article? New sections? I learned today, incidentally, that Charlemagne's courtiers used to flatter him by comparing him to David. Must be lots of details like that waiting out there somewhere. PiCo 07:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David and Mormonism

I changed the previous summary of David and Mormonism using some the canonical scripture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I also added some citations. I hope it is clearer now. Any suggestions? Wrad 01:04, 17 February 2007

I feel the D. in Mormonism section is now far too long. We need to keep balance between various sections, but this part is now far longer than, for example, the section on David in Islam, and Islam is a far more important religion in terms of numbers of adherants, historical influence, or just about any measure you care to mention. Can you look at the section very objectively and cut it down to the bare basisc, within, say, five or six lines?PiCo 03:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I shortened it a little. I don't know if I can shorten it more without losing meaning. I do agree, though, the Islam section should be more proportional. Can anyone add to it? Wrad 04:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] King David...a redhead?

Doesn't it say somewhere in the Talmud or via 'legend' that King David had red hair? Has anyone else seen, read, or heard of this anywhere? --WassermannNYC 11:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, no one has responded to my query (yet), but this comes straight from the Adam article:

Adam's name is a reference to red earth or clay, but it also can be interpreted as 'the one who blushes' or 'turns rosy'. This concords with Adam's capacity for shame or embarrassment. Note that the reddish clay suggests the presence of iron oxide, which is the mineral that makes blood red and accounts for the red-faced countenance of blushing. The same root Hebrew word turns up as admoni in subsequent descriptions of Esau and King David (1 Samuel 16-17), where the description is commonly interpreted as 'ruddy' or 'red-haired.' [bolded emphasis mine] --WassermannNYC 01:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Biblical Hebrew was written without vowels, which (a) made puns irresistable, and created problems for copyists at a later date when vowels became usual - what vowels to put in? There's a whole series of puns here, all based on the fact that all these words, when written without vowels, are identical or nearly so. The words are: adamah, earth; adam, man; adom, red; and dam, blood. There were no capital letters in Hebrew either, which meant that it was impossible to discriminate between adam meaning man in general, and Adam as a name for the first man. PiCo 06:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islam template

I don't know if I like the Islam template. It takes up a lot of space and attention, and isn't that relevant. Plus, there is no Christian or Jewish Template, so why this one? Any objections to removing it? Wrad 23:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)