Talk:David A. Trampier

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[edit] Talent?

The encyclopedia entry doesn't do Trampier's talent justice. His pen and ink illustrations are at once bold and abstract, beautifully textured and economical, imaginative, evocative. Head and shoulders above his contemporaries.

Is a gallery possible here? Copyright issues? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.94.105.225 (talk • contribs).

I agree he was talented, but there are, as you fear, copyright issues. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the copyright holder (WotC by now?) would conset to a limited gallery. Worth a letter?

Legal Department Copyright Agent, Wizards of the Coast, Inc., P.O. Box 707, Renton, WA 98057

They'd have to release the images under the GFDL or into the public domain. They're unlikely to do either. But you're free to write to them yourself. — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's more complex, and more simple, than that. Mr. Trampier has left the profession. His works remain his property, and the copyright is his. Copyright, by its very definition, allows for the rights holder to withhold the work from publication until they decide to release it. Mr. Trampier is no longer interested in participating, and if his permission cannot be secured, then his work remains out of bounds until it passes to his estate. And then, perhaps, they can be approached. — Chris Adams Yamara 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where's Tramp?

Is there any references for the story about Trampier's "disappearance". rec.games.frp.dnd FAQ gives a very different version of events:

  Wormy, by Dave Trampier, ran concurrently with What's New? and
  SnarfQuest.  It ended suddenly in the middle of a story, and has
  been the center of no small amount of confusion and consternation.
  What is known for certain is that Dave solicited orders for a Wormy
  collection at one point (around Dragon #102), but for whatever 
  reason, it fell through and was never published (everyone who ordered 
  a copy got their money back).  No one, and I mean no one, in either 
  the gaming or art industries has seen or heard from him since; though
  it is known for certain (through his family) that he is still alive
  and well, just not working with either games or art.

--Waza

The information from the FAQ sounds like additional information, not different information. It would be a good addition to the article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:11, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

The reason I say it is different not addition version is the article states that "Checks were returned as undeliverable", allowing this hardly sonds like the actions of a man demanding more money as suggested above. What seems the case are both are unreferenced hearsay. Although above is from a FAQ, what is the source of this? What relatives reported he is alive and well? Here is some more hearsay from the FAQ:

   The most likely story to surface so far (as
   told by an artist who was with TSR at the time) is that Trampier
   wanted more money and threw a major tantrum over the issue, at which
   point the editors returned the remainder of the episodes to him,
   unpublished.  Since neither Trampier nor the editors of Dragon at
   that time will comment on the issue, this story cannot be verified.

Well, it's all hearsay. Can we add it to the article and explicitly state it's all hearsay? — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:21, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

My personal opinion is where no solid info is available or likely to be come available in the near future then hearsay is preferable to no info at all as long as it is reasonable, not disputed and clearly stated as hearsay. However I am not sure what Wiki Policy is. - Waza 23:50, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The rumors are now part of the Trampier story, but their existence as rumors has to be chronicled as fact, not their substance. (Which it seems like you're saying.) — Chris Adams Yamara 09:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a slightly different take on it, but it's still hearsay:

The seeds of his disappearance may be hinted at in the strip itself. Wormy 
featured "evil" D&D monsters acting in kindly human ways and the humans tended to 
be the bad guys. Ogres and Trolls war gamed. Wormy the dragon was a pool-playing, 
cigar-smoking lay about. Occasionally violence would erupt but Trampier did not 
hold back. There was blood and terror. Trampier never depicted violence in a 
noble or heroic fashion. Characters ran for their lives. The subtext of Wormy was 
really an anti-gaming message. Wormy subtly screamed at its readers "quit 
fantasizing and experience real life". 

Some claim the artist is dead and buried in Philly. It's been confirmed, however, 
via his family that Trampier is still alive. His whereabouts are utterly unknown, 
even by his brother-in-law (and fellow Dragon contributor) Tom Wham. Wham states 
he's not talked to his brother-in-law since 1982. He thinks Trampier lives in 
Illinois... "somewhere". There's a rumor in comic circles that he's living out of 
his car in Canada. TSR will only make vague statements that point to a possible 
falling out between Trampier and magazine staff. Art Director Roger Raupp stated 
Trampier's strip simply ended because "He didn't turn in any art." An unnamed TSR 
staffer was quoted as saying "I will never work with him again." Dragon magazine 
editor Kim Mohan has stated checks for Trampier's final cartoons were returned 
unopened. 

http://www.geocities.com/conspiracyprime/e2_Wormy.htm. I have also come across several suggestions that TSR was in the process of acquiring the copyrights to many of the cartoons appearing in Dragon, even taking some of the writers and artists to court, and that Trampier was one of the ones who ended up on the short end of the deal. In the more extreme versions of the story (i.e., those less likely to be true), he lost ownership of the comic or had his royalties arrangement reduced. If true, I can see refusing payment as a matter of principle, sort of an "I want it all or nothing" stance. But again, this is all from fan message boards, not legitimate knowledgeable sources. -- Canonblack 06:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

He stopped working with TSR for personal reasons. This account is not fan hearsay, but from an TSR eyewitness. Any more detail than this has no place online, let alone Wikipedia. — Chris Adams Yamara 01:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

And another thing... The quote from www.geocities.com/conspiracyprime is a mongrelization of an unaccredited original piece of mine posted back in 1998, still visible via the Wayback Machine: Trampier's Wormy Bootwebbed and this followup from April 2000: Trampier Lives? This might also help explain why Phil Foglio seems to be talking to himself at Origins 2000-- "In a casual conversation with fellow Dragon artist Phil Foglio at the 2000 Origins Game Convention, Mr. Foglio stated that at some point..." --he's actually talking to me in 1995 at Dexcon 4. Though Phil has every right to repeat himself. :) And yes, he did report the creepy quip, "When an artist's checks are returned uncashed, he is presumed dead."

Big thanks to Waza for the updated references, including the ones I listed here. I do not like to sockpuppet, but I have been the one asking the questions about Tramp for the last ten or twenty years, and am the source for some of the regurgitated rumors. — Chris Adams Yamara 09:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agreee this is an issue that needs to be dealt with sensitively, as Dave obviously "disappered" for his own reasons, and there needs to be a certain amount of respect for that. However it is also clear from a simple google search that he is someone widely admired for his creative talents, and many people want to know a little about him and would love to see more of his artist work. It is very hard finding references as many quotes are second and third hand, and some things are implied rather than stated by those who appear to have had contact with him. What seems clear at this time is several prominent people from the gaming industry have been in contact with him in recent years, and while some of those would like to encourage him to do some more artistic work, he is not at this stage ready to do so. I have found a few interesting references and will link some here until it can be determined what is suitable for inclusion in the article. Some are second hand and unreferencesd themselves but may give clues where to find some more useful sources. -Waza 04:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

• http://www.tomwham.com/gangster.html - On a page about one of his games last updated updated November 10, 2004 Tom Wham states: "The cover art was done by my good friend and brother in law, Dave Trampier (some of you might remember Wormy from the early dragons). Wormy fans, please note: Dave and I last communicated in 1982, he still exists somewhere in Illinois, I think, but I do not know how to get in touch with him. Sorry." - Now referenced in article - Waza 00:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12998&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=trampier&start=15 - Allan Grohe Editor and Project Manager, Pied Piper Publishing states RJK and EGG (presumably refering to Robert J Kuntz and E. Gary Gygax) confirmed the Daily Egyption Cabbie is Trampier.
• http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16993&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=trampier&start=75 - Robert J Kuntz posting as MajorKookie, gives reasons why Trampier left TSR, basically TSR not choosing to publish either his wormy compiltation nor the Tiatan Game (the game was latter published by Avalon Hill)
• http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/generalDiscussion/whereSWormy - Erik Mona confirms "Dave's currently driving a cab, and is not associated with the industry anymore."
• http://www.dwarvenforge.com/dwarvenforums/viewtopic.php?id=1619 - Jeff Martin, President of Dwarven Forge (which is based in Carbondale) confirms Trampier lives in Carbondale, Illinois. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Waza (talk • contribs) 07:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC).