Talk:David Berlinski

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I believe Berlinski's PhD was in mathematics, not philosophy.

Contents [hide] 1 Natural selection as a universal mechanism 2 Please respect Talk page purpose 3 Tried to clean it up a bit 4 Creationist 5 Deletion of Material

[edit] Natural selection as a universal mechanism

• ....Natural selection as some sort of universal mechanism is just as implausable as having a single differential equation explain all of physics

Berlinski said this in replying to his critics following his groundbraking article "The Deniable Darwin" http://www.arn.org/docs/berlinski/db_deniabledarwin0696.htm I am busy tracking down the reference. To me this single statement was a turning point in trying to understand the mechanism of evolution:"Natural selection". The question is:What naturaled and who did the selecting? and Is NS a cause or an effect? The phrase 'Natural selection' is language confusion. As a technical term it is a misleading oxymoron. The proper term should be:"The Selection Force". At least one can visualise a God-like force 'selecting' for things. Berlinski notes:"... NS is a force because it does something..." Darwin used the phrase over 300 times in his Origin of Species as some sort of universal mechanism that explains everything Origin of Species, 6th Edition, by Darwin http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext99/otoos610.txt

The phrase Natural Selection is a form of linguistic terrorism. It is a synonym for bad luck, misfortune, and getting the pointy end of the stick. It is empirically, that is, scientifically, meaningless, but it makes a pretty metaphor. It originated in a categorical error parading as an analogy. For the past 150 years, it has deluded unthinking simpletons into mistaking it for a real phenomenon, when it is nothing but a collective anthropomorphization of non-specified natural causes of mortality presented as a mystical, animist 'presence' possessing the intelligence and powers of descrimination necessary to make actual choices, i.e., 'selections'. As such it may be accurately summed up as a childish religious mystique, that is, as a superstition for the Godless. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.11.241.194 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

One individual's demise is bad luck. The demise of thousands and millions of individuals over thousands and millions of years, is scientific empirical evidence, not mystical or animist or religious. Have the courage of your convictions to register an (anonymous) ID and sign your Talk page comments with four tildes. Hu 23:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Language confusion is ALSO evident in Decent with Modification, Micro Evolution, Macro Evolution. Who did the modifying, what micro'd and what macro'd? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.11.241.194 (talk • contribs) 17:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

P.T. Saunders refered to the lack of a clear definition of Darwinism: "There is no canonical definition of neo-Darwinism, and surprisingly few writers on the subject seem to consider it necessary to spell out precisely what it is that they are discussing. This is especially curious in view of the controversy which dogs the theory, for one might have thought that a first step towards resolving the dispute over its status would be to decide upon a generally acceptable definition over it. ... Of course, the lack of firm definition does, as we shall see, make the theory much easier to defend." P.T. Saunders & M.W. Ho, "Is Neo-Darwinism Falsifiable? - And Does It Matter?", Nature and System (1982) 4:179-196, p. 179. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.11.241.194 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Pause for the Logician: Swimming in the soundless sea, the shark has survived for millions of years, sleek as a knife blade and twice as dull. The shark is an organism wonderfully adapted to its environment. Pause. And then the bright brittle voice of logical folly intrudes: after all, it has survived for millions of years.

En example of this logical folly is vividly demonstrated by Gould:
"The geological record features episodes of high dying, during which extinction-prone groups are more likely to disappear, leaving extinction-resistant groups as life's legacy". S.J. Gould & N. Eldredge, "Punctuated equilibrium comes of age", Nature (1993) 366:223-7, p. 225
Question:How was this "extinction-proneness" measured, except by noting that the groups went extinct?

We are told that the ape and the human 'diverged' from a common ancestor. But to an observer back then, would this common ancestor not have looked like an ape?

n Fred Hoyle's "Mathematics of Evolution" p.3-4 he states that Biologists have in a sense become mentally ill. Ken Ham from http://www.answersingenesis.org/ states: I believe in Natural Selection. Thus not just the Evolutionists are suffering from mental illness but the Young Earth Creationists as well. Creationists, Dembski, Scordova,Behe and Evolutionists continually debate each other, but their language is so confused that their debates are meaningless. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.11.241.194 (talk • contribs) 08:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

p.277 of Berlinski's book Black Mischief: "...In general, trouble arises simply because the connection between biological traits and fitness is never derived from first principles. If the pig were to be bortn with wheels mounted on ball bearings instead of trotters, would it be better off on some scale of porcine fitness? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.11.241.194 (talk • contribs) 01:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The phrase 'Natural Selection' is thus entirely meaningless. And as Berlinski noted:"...once NS as a concept is destroyed nothing at all remains of evolution." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.239.183.213 (talk • contribs).

Steven Pinker addresses this question in his discussion of evolutionary theory in The Language Instinct (ca. 1992) -- i.e. is "fitness" in Darwinian selection a tautological concept? The answer he gives (adequately, I think) is that fitness can be described in an objective engineering sense relative to the environment -- e.g. an animal that lives in the desert and can survive many days or even weeks without water is objectively more "fit" in that environment than an animal that had less-efficient thermoregulation and required water much more frequently. In this context I am reminded of Richard Feynman's comment on the "polywater" controversy of the early 1970s (see Polywater by Felix Franks, MIT Press -- polywater was supposedly a more ordered, lower-energy state of water) that polywater did not exist, because if it did, there would exist some organism that didn't need to eat -- it would simply ingest ordinary water and excrete polywater and live on the energy difference.

137.82.188.68 04:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please respect Talk page purpose

Please respect the purpose of this Talk page: It is to discuss edits made or proposed for the Berlinski article. It is NOT a forum for discussing evolution, natural selection, creationism, creation science, or the like. Thank you. Finell (Talk) 16:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tried to clean it up a bit

Tried to clean it up a bit without touching anything contentious. I think the "tutored" in quotes should have a citation as to by whom the term is attributed to have been used. -- QTJ 07:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creationist

The current version of the article labels Berlinksi a creationist, do we have any citations or sources for this claim?JoshuaZ 23:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The article already has supporting cites that he is an intelligent design proponent and intelligent design is already well supported showing that ID is a form of creationism, so I don't think we need any per the Making necessary assumptions clause of the WP:NPOV policy. FeloniousMonk 23:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of Material

I just wanted to quickly address this portion that has be deleted separate times by User:209.137.175.59. I believe that the material is of significant substance, and provides background to the article. Additionally, the material is also referenced, so there should not be any conflict about its legitimacy as to the information. Do you believe this is a legitimate edit, and the material removed does not belong in the article? Please leave your comments below so that this may be resolved. To leave a comment, enter a new line, and begin your comment with an asterisk (*). --Thank You. Sukh17 ^{T • C • E} 04:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My side is that it does not pertain to the article in fact the entire section should not even be listed. This an article about David Berlinski not ID.--209.137.175.59 04:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Concur with Sukh17's analysis. This anonymous IP has deleted the section six times and been reverted by three editors (by my count). Deletions of content with citations pertinent to an article should never be undertaken unless discussed first on the article's talkpage or unless consensus indicates change. Ronbo76 04:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies I have not been editing long enough to know that deletion of content should be talked about on a talk page. In the future I will take note. But once again, why if this is an article about David Berlinski why do we even have a section about what ID is? There are perfectly good articles that discuss the ID as the pseudoscience that it is. Why is this section even on this page? --209.137.175.59 04:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Your IP's banner, attached to Valley Forge Christian College, along with your usage of the word, psuedoscience, are very telling. Your revisionist deletions of properly cited material affect the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view of this article. You may wish to examine your bias. Ronbo76 04:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In a nutshell, its bias objects to intelligent design. Ronbo76 04:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In an attempt to distance myself from the Christian college (I'm so liberal as compared to most Christians and I feel so out of place there sometimes) I'll reference my blog, [1] and [2]I am a Theistic Evolutionist and I believe that God has used evolution to create the current state of nature. However I do not believe that this section and specifically those citations have any business in this article. --209.137.175.59 04:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You need to read the 3RR warning placed on your talkpage. In a nutshell, when an editor reverts your deletion, that is very telling. Once might not be telling. The second and third time should be a reason for you to stop and consider why it is being done. For three different editors to revert you six times should inform you that your viewpoint is not shared by various members of this Wikipedian community.

BTW, blogs (especially self-posted ones) are not considered authorative sources as its editor can change them at will. Please see WP:EL and Wikipedia:Attribution#Using questionable or self-published sources. Ronbo76 04:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I you read my Blog my point was to establish my viewpoint on evolution which you are contesting not to reference anything scholarly. --209.137.175.59 04:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not contest your blog; I contest your deletions of properly cited material along with your disruption of NPOV of this article. Ronbo76 04:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you help me understand how this is an NPOV thing? I dislike most ID guys, this guy is ID, the material that I deleted was anti ID, which I should love but I view it as not pertaining to the article as a whole. I'm trying to be a NPOV as I can. I just believe that the mention of ID is meant give a bash time for his credentials which should go under a "Criticism" section instead of under an "Intelligent Design" --209.137.175.59 04:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Your statement, I dislike most ID guys indicates a bias against intelligent design. You need to read the NPOV wikilink I already provided for you. Basically, neutral POV occurs in most Wikipedian articles and be seen as if viewpoints are on a scale equally balanced. If it did not, other editors will cite material to balance the article.

In essence, let's say I objected to a properly cited article on witchcraft and editted (read deleted) properly cited material just because I object to the premise of witchcraft. I would be guilty of tipping the NPOV scale in favor of my bias and effectively disrupt the neutral viewpoint by imposing my POV. Ronbo76 05:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we just change the section titled "Intelligent Design" to "Criticism" and call it a night? --209.137.175.59 05:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No, because you do not have consensus for that either. Ronbo76 05:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How do I get that? Can we take a vote or do we have to get every editor on Wikipedia to concur or what? --209.137.175.59 05:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not a vote. This talkpage is for article improvement. With Sukh17's first post to this talkpage, he provided his rationale for reverting your deletions. The fact that two other editors (to include myself) objected to your deletions indicate consensus with his actions. I would suggest you cease your edits to this page; take this as a learning experience and resolve never to delete properly cited material. Ronbo76 05:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In addition, you need to re-read the 3RR warning. You have exceeded more than three edits in a 24 hour period, the maximum amount of edits allowed. Now, before you object, a Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol editor is still subject to that policy but given a bit more latitude when reverting questionable edits. If I was pushing POV edits via RC Patrol, I would expect to get whacked. Ronbo76 05:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what in the world the RC Patrol is and I'm pretty sure that after this experience I'm not going to contribute to Wikipedia.--209.137.175.59 05:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't revert the article? Why did you mark it as such? I added a citation needed thingy and I changed the name of a section, thats not a RV. Do you have any clue what is going on? --209.137.175.59 05:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I do have a clue. I know policy and follow it. Ronbo76 05:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

You have exceeded your 3RR allowed edits. You obviously are not reading provided policy. In addition, I did tell you specifically you did not have consensus to change the section title. One more edit within 24 hours will get you blocked. Understand? Ronbo76 05:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW, where does it say that editing is the same as reverting? --209.137.175.59 05:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The creation of a criticism section is generally discouraged. The material is ID-neutral - it just provides context. Rather than deleting it, if you find the section to abrupt, maybe you can track down some material (preferably from secondary or tertiary sources) and flesh it out a little. But taking material out that adds context does nothing to help the reader. Guettarda 05:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm done, you win, I hate Wikipedia. Goodbye--209.137.175.59 05:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow, talk about the reactionary gangrape of a newbie. Did anyone here actually read WP:AGF? Or is dismissing arguments by presuming malice the norm here? There is a difference between giving context to a statement and including a dismissive non-sequitur. Arguments and criticisms of ID (and we all know there are plenty) don't belong in a biography. Several editors have brought up NPOV without actually addressing the issue of value-neutral coverage. Including negative, if sourced, statements does not automatically make an article any more "NPOV", especially when the topic derided is of peripheral importance to the article's subject. What I'm saying is, there's room for debate here, but it is being stifled by dismissals and circumvented by a selective interpretation of policy. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 19:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)