Talk:Day of Ashura

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of the WikiProject Islam, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Islam on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines.
B	This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
High	This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Holiday-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents 1 SAW 2 Jewish Residents of Medina 3 Sunni/Shi'a observance 4 Zoroastrian influence 5 Āshūrāh rather than Aashurah 6 Photos 7 Shi'a not Muslims 8 why be rude ?! 9 page title 10 The Date of Ashura 11 No True Scotsman 12 Merging 13 Popular customs 14 flailing 15 spelling 16 Beating with Swords 17 Transliteration in intro - are apostrophes quote marks or glottal stops? 18 External Links 19 Rearrangement:POV or NPOV 19.1 Tolerance

[edit] SAW

What means that "SAW" behind some names? Why is it placed there? 81.91.217.19 18:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I think what you mean is like Muhammad SAW. It is not behind some names, but only behind the prophet Muhammad SAW's name which means SallAllahu Alaihi Wasallam or it can be translated to 'Peace upon him'.

Well, I think (S.A.W.)s shold be removed from the article, since this is an encyclopedia and objectivity is needed. Otherwise we would need to change all "Jesus" to "our father and savior Jesus Christ". That's not my idea. check muhammad page and you don't see any SAWs there. Regards. Ombudsee 12:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There are hadith which mention the importance of uttering glad tidings upon the prophet (SAW) upon hearing his name. What harm does adding (SAW) do? Why does is affect objectivity? The words Peace upon him, don't imply any disputed status, like "father" or "saviour". Yusufk 20:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing the SAW from behind Prophet Muhammad's SAW name is like removing the capitalization of God when speaking of articles on Christianity or Judaism. It is not biased to have respect for the traditions of a group of people. It is biased to disrespect those traditions. Dnkrumah 11:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Residents of Medina

It was also a fast day for the Jews of Medina, in remembrance of their salvation from the Pharaoh of Egypt.

But the Jewish calendar is lunar/solar, which means it goes out-of-phase with the Muslim calendar. From this technicality: how would Jews be able to observe anything based on the Muslim calendar? (Jews cannot observe anything based on the Gregorian calendar). elpincha 21:50, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The hadith mentions that the Prophet(sws) saw that the Jews fasted on the 9th of Muhharam and then he asked when it was. There could be several reasons for this and one of them could be that the Jews of that area followed the local calender or that the fast was set to the Muslim calender for the ease of the Muslims.

Either way it is a simple fact that the fast was for all Muslims and was set on the 9th according to the hadith. So it should included in the article because a critique of calender differences is for another site surely? --Cjuk 16:14, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In answer to the above question, according to the wikipedia article,the islamic calendar was changed from lunar/solar, to strictly lunar in the last years of Muhammed's life, which would mean that the dates of the muslim calendar and the hebrew calendar originally were the same and went out of phase only later.

I still don't understand why the Jews were fasting at this time. looking at the projected dates of coming Ashurah's, they seem to fall in winter. unless you take on a personal fast, there is no Jewish fast day in the winter Akerensky99 17:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I did some research on the web and found that the Jewish "Fast of the Firstborn" is on Nissan 14. Ashura day falls on April 7, 632 in the Islamic year 11 and Nissan 8, 4392. I Think we are very close here. Habbak 22:43, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sunni/Shi'a observance

There is a major difference in the way this day is observed between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. I think something like separate sections be used to clarify this. --Yodakii 05:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this point and think that the article as it stands is highly biased toward the Shi'a point of view. There is too much emphasis on the Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali. Yes, it should be mentioned as important, but it is by no means THE most important event that occurred on the 10th of Muharram. It is for this reason that I think the POV tag remain and I propose that the contents be rearranged and split into separate Shi'a and Sunni sections. Yusufk 20:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This article[1] would be a good starting point: "The Day of 'Ashura This coming week marks the Muslim observance of the "Day of 'Ashura." The word 'ashura literally means "10th," as it falls on the 10th day of Muharram, this first month of the Islamic year. 'Ashura is an ancient observance that is now recognized for different reasons and in different ways among Sunni and Shi'a Muslims.

Among Sunni Muslims, the month of Muharram and the Day of 'Ashura itself, is a simple remembrance of the Prophet Moses and his liberation from the Pharoah. It is strongly recommended, but not required, to spend two days fasting on and around the Day of 'Ashura. Among Shi'a Muslims, however, the days leading up to 'Ashura, and the remembrance of the day itself, are very mournful and grief-filled. The days are filled with passion plays, assemblies, and public displays of grief over the martyrdom of Husayn in 680 C.E.

During Muharram and 'Ashura, the rift between Shi'a and Sunni Muslims is naturally highlighted by the differences in their beliefs and practices. Particularly in modern Iraq, where sectarian violence is continually escalating, tensions may run very high during this time."

Yusufk 20:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree the differences are highlighted sufficiently in the text. Dnkrumah 11:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zoroastrian influence

In Iran, in Tunisia (and maybe in other islamic countries), Āshūrāh is somtimes celebrated with a ritual that involves jumping over a fire (and trying not to get one's self burned). This along with the fact that Āshūrāh is more important for Shia then for Sunni, and Shia being heavly influenced by Persian culture, suggests some Zoroastrian influence (Zoroastrians considered fire a symbol of God), maybe even Zoroastrian origin.

You are talking about Iranian newyear, not Ashurah. --Striver 23:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Jumping over fire in Iran take place in the evening of the last Tuesday of Iranian calendar year. They call it Wednesday Ceremony cince it is the night before the last Wednesday. The last Wednesday of the Iranian calendar year occures on the second half of March. But Ashura happened on October. Therefore no influence from Zoroastrians to Ashura could be recognized.

Farhoudk 06:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Āshūrāh rather than Aashurah

The word 'Āshūrāh means "tenth" in Arabic. Its first letter is a sound that is projected from the throat. It is generally tranlsiterated into English as an apostrophe ('). The 2nd letter is similar to "a" in "far". This is a long "a", usually transliterated as (ā). For example, Islām, or Qur-ān, or Ramadhān.

Therefore, in accordance with general and standard transliteration, and with Wiki standards, the word should be represented as 'Āshūrāh rather than Aashurah. Or to make it neater, yet still in accordance with Wiki standards, Āshūrāh. Adamcaliph 16:15, 03 October 2005 UTC

Ancient Iraq and Iran were ruled by the Assyrians (or Ashuryans), known as Ashuras (hence Ashurbanipal,etc.), who were well known for their cruelty. Could Āshura (derived from ashura in the Indo-Iranian languages) be a lingering memory of that period? Does anyone have any ideas?

I think the two words just happen to sound similar. Besides, the two words start with different sounds. Acc. to the transcription on this page, the word "Ashura" starts with a 'ein and a long a; according to the Arabic page on Assyria (linked to from the English page), the Arabic word for Assyria is 'Ashuria' and starts with an alif and a short a.--70.107.173.227 19:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

These photos are ridiculous. Everyone coming to the article expects to see the flagellation and blood, so why ignore it in the visual depictions of Ashurah?

possibly because we don't have any such photos under a free license. if you can make it to beirut or karbala, erm, within the next few hours, maybe we will. —Charles P._(Mirv) 05:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

a trip to karbala isn't necessary. the pakistanis do it in new york.

The article does not mention the slicing of the head with knives. Why not? --Jamiem

well, if anyone can get a photograph of that, that would be great. all i saw here was symbolic breast-beating that wouldn't look out of place during the agnus dei of a catholic mass. —Charles P._(Mirv) 16:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Check out the British Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/galleries/galleries.html?in_page_id=711&in_gallery_type_id=3

The photos are there and they are disgusting. How can this article not mention this? I am amazed by this omission. RussianBoy 19:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are some photos from Lebanon that can be used in the article: [2]. They are under a Creative Commons license. Jungli 20:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

"RESPECT WHAT ALLAH HAS HONORED, FOR VERILY TO HONOR THINGS DUE TO VIRTUE WHICH ALLAH HAS ACCORDED THEM IS AMONG THE TRAITS OF THE INTELLIGENT."

Why those photos here???

To attribute the significance of Aashurah to Sayyiduna Hussain (RA)'s martyrdom is totally baseless because the sanctity of Aashurah is proven, beyond doubt, from the time of Rasulullah (SAW), whilst Sayyiduna Hussain (RA) was martyred fifty years after the holy prophet Mohammed (SAW) left this earthly abode. The fact that the martyrdom of Sayyiduna Hussain (RA) occurred on the Day of Aashurah has absolutely no bearing on the significance of this day nor is the sanctity of this day derived from this event. Jamsa 12:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If you are worried about blood then it is also prudent to stress that the vast majority of Shi'a Clergy also disapprove of the way some take things to an extreme during these celebrations. Dnkrumah

[edit] Shi'a not Muslims

I find it personally offending as a Muslim ( sunni ) that this article portrays ashura as a Muslim " holiday " as if it were so for the entire Muslem community . Ashura is a day of significance to Muslems , yes , it is the day prophet Moses was saved and Muslems thank God for saving their dear prophet by fasting that certain day as prophet Muhammad urged . I'm afraid the average reader would not be able to make difference between the way Shi'as observe this day and the way sunnis do . Note that the grotesque actions of the Shi'a is extremely condemned by the vass majority of sunnis( if not unanimously ). It would be much clearer if the article was seperated into two , or at least the sunni opinion of Shi'a practices is made more obvious . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hhnnrr (talk • contribs).

You make a good point. I have put a POV tag on it, and hopefully someone (perhaps yourself) can get around to making it more clear cut. If not, I'll try to do so soon. Pepsidrinka 15:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The article in no way portrays Ashoura as a day commemorated equally by Sunnis and Shi'a! The introduction explicitly enumerates the several events said to have occurred on Ashoura on which the large majority of Muslims agree (I have removed some minor subjective content from the introduction). The article then goes on to separate Shi'a commemoration from Sunni commemoration by separate headings. It is quite clear from the content that Sunnis and Shi'a have very different views regarding the significance of Ashoura ("The day carries considerably less significance for Sunnis than it does for Shi'as."). Your concerns for the "average reader" are nonsense, though your ridiculous objections to the article do not surprise me in light of your bold assertion above that "Shi'a are not Muslims." Nice try. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.172.222.90 (talk • contribs).

Can we please remove the POV tag? I see no reason for it since the separate Sunni and Shia commemorations are explicitly stated. It is obvious and logical however that this article will dwell more on the Shia aspects because Ashura is so much more significant to them. Jungli 09:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It's time to remove the POV tag. There is no religious bias in this article - no support for one sect or the other. No opinions are presented as fact. As Jungli points out, there will obviously be more focus on the Shi'a commemoration in light of the holiday's special significance to them. That someone finds the neutral description of a predominantly Shi'a holiday "personally offending" is no reason to keep this tag up. It would, however, be religious bias to adopt Hhnnrr's Sunni viewpoint and strip this article down to a Sunni description of Ashurah. 68.239.0.68 15:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

There is definitely a reason to keep the POV tag. There are distinct differences in beliefs around Ashura and two distinct points of view regarding the significance of the day. However, the Shi'a point-of-view, seems to take center stage, with the majority of information centered around the Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali. Yusufk 20:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why be rude ?!

Why is it that some wiki writers find it necessary to be rude in order to prove a point ? I may have been wrong ( even though I believe I was not ), yet still my comments could have been answered to a bit more politely ! . My title does not say Shi'a are NOT Muslims ( regardless of my belief ) it only expresses what I thought would be a possible misconception , especially that the first thing you see when you open the page is a picture of severely bleeding men ! ( I have an open proxy therefore i didnt add my comments to the past comments - I am blocked from editing )Thanks anyway ..Hhnnrr 13:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The photo of the sword ritual might be misplaced, but I am not so sure. True, the vast majority of Muslims certaintly don't practice this ritual on Ashurah, and even prominent Shi'a clerics (say, Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani) have condemned it. Placing it at the top of the article may suggest that it is a more prominent or accepted practice than it really is. But at the same time, the practice is perhaps the most distinctive feature of the yearly Ashurah commemoration, and I personally felt it was the most interesting. That's why I uploaded the photo, though someone else has placed it prominently on top. Any thoughts? 9591353082 19:57, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] page title

The current title of Ashurah is wrong. The correct way would be `Ashura'. Assuming the Arabic is correct, there is not a Ta' marbuta on the end, which means there is no reason that there should be an "h" on the end. Google hits for ashura receive over one million, while ashurah receives 23 thousand (probably several being mirrors of this page). I'm changing the title and content of the article. Cuñado - Talk 16:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Date of Ashura

On this page, the date of Ashura for 2007 is 28 Jan. Does this mean sunset of 28 Jan, or sunset of 27 Jan?--70.107.173.227 19:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Acc. to the newspaper, Ashura is today, 29 January, and not 28 January as it says in the article. This also agrees with the link given at Remembrance of Muharram for finding the 1st of Muharram. Acc. to that site, the 1 Muharram was 20 Jan, so 29 Jan, being nine days later, should be the 10th Muharram. Am I missing something?--Gheuf 22:18, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No True Scotsman

"These violent acts could also have been works of Wahhabis or Salafis who often guise themselves as Sunni Muslims. True Sunnis are peace-loving and while they do not subscribe to Shiites Ashura practices, they acknowledge that such differing of views in non-theological matters exists and should be tolerated for the better good, especially since the Ashura rites is something that has been carried out for generations."

This section contains a logical fallacy of the type No_true_Scotsman and should really have some sources if it's to be taken seriously. There are also some grammar issues. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.7.240.226 (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Merging

I found that Remembrance of Muharram can be merged in Day of Ashura#Shi'a commemoration because they're very similar.--Sa.vakilian 04:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes but then you have the article basically big on Sunni perspectives, small on Shiite ones. That's not NPOV. I suggest keep this article. Bless sins 22:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

We can add Shi'a POV. There's enough information about the history of commemoration of Ashura among Shi'as.--Sa.vakilian 07:59, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I rearranged the article because I think it isn't a Shi'a-Sunni conflict. There are Sunnis who mourn for Husayn ibn Ali and even non-Muslims. Now what's your idea about merging--Sa.vakilian 17:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Please write your idea about merging Remembrance of Muharram into Day of Ashura.--Sa.vakilian 18:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure this article fully describes the entire Shi'a observance. This article concentrates on Ashura itself. The other article discusses the entire Shi'a observance of Muharram which last 10 days. That fact makes the articles somewhat different in scope and direction. To incorporate the complete Shi'a observance into an article entitled Day of Ashura, while it could probably be done well, it would be somewhat misleading as the entire observance is a series of activities conducted over the first 10 days of Muharram. I believe the articles should remain separate for that reason. Dnkrumah 11:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular customs

In this part we explain popular customs not necessarily religious one. I mean there may be contradiction between what people do and Islam like hurting or cutting the body. So please write religious ideas in the relevant sections.--Sa.vakilian 06:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] flailing

image 6 of http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6309869.stm shows flailing. Can you please add a section that fully explains the flailing rites? I'd love to learn about it.--Sonjaaa 15:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It's called tatbir (تطبير). It's always controversial, and a lot (or most) clerics say it's bad, but some people just don't care. It's an old tradition. —MK (talk) 22:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] spelling

The name Husayn is spelled a number of different ways throughout the article. I understand that this is common in transliteration, but most languages now have official transliterations (pinyin, romaji, etc). Even if not, one should be picked and stuck with it throughout.

Also, he is referred to as al-Husayn in some places - specifically, after mention of his tomb. This is confusing - I'm not sure if it's a typo or if I just don't understand these cultural naming schemes. Again, some note should be made and something consistent should be used throughout, I think. catParade 02:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

---

Arabic transliteration is unfortunately very variable in current practice, partly due to major pronunciation differences in different dialects. The ordinary English spelling of this name is "Hussein" -- perhaps this is unpopular with Shias due to Saddam.

Any noun in Arabic is preceded by "al" (or an assimilated form like "as" before "s") which means "the" -- and whether to include this in translation also varies greatly.

[edit] Beating with Swords

The article doesn't mention the self-beating with swords that we see in news photos.

Perhaps this is limited to certain denominations? It should be described. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.251.63 (talk) 17:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

You can see popular customs. There is a link which shows it.--Sa.vakilian 03:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transliteration in intro - are apostrophes quote marks or glottal stops?

The transliteration in the intro has:

‘Āshūrā’

With apostrophe marks before and after.

I can't tell if this is supposed to be transliteration of Arabic glottal stops -- or quotes.

If they are quotes they should definitely be removed -- not needed and obviously confusing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.6.251.63 (talk) 17:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] External Links

I removed a link to the web site "when-is.com." This is a junk site which has the dates for each year on a separate page. Obviously it's a spam site, and moreover it has less, not more information than the article proper. Other Wikipedia articles on Islam link to it, i suggest they all be removed. KriZe 15:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rearrangement:POV or NPOV

Although commemoration of Imam Hussayn has great position in the Shiism but its restriction to Shia is a mistake. Sunnis glorify him too.[3] As I know, there isn't any Shi'a in Indonesia, Thus some Sunnis commemorate Huusains martyrdom like Tabuik. Also Armenians who are not Muslim commemorate Ashura in Iran. I prefer to rearrange this article:

1- Etymology of Ashura

2- Hussayn's Martyrdom (or Karbala) commemoration

2-1-History

2-2-Customs

3- commemoration Other religious events

4- Violence during Ashura

5- Ashura in the Gregorian calendar

--Sa.vakilian 08:09, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I rearranged this article few days ago after I had proposed it here. Contents

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 2.1 History
               + 2.1.1 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a
         o 2.2 Popular customs
         o 2.3 Sunni Viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
         o 2.4 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
         o 2.5 Socio-political aspects
   * 3 Other Islamic commemorations
   * 4 Violence during Ashura
   * 5 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar

Now if anybody wants to rearrange it again, please discuss here first.--Sa.vakilian 13:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

This arrangement does not make sense and is biased to the Shi'a point of view. The "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali" has nothing to do with the day of Ashura from the Sunni point of view nor do the customs mentioned. Therefore I would suggest that the article be split into a separate Shi'a and Sunni point of view.

Contents

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a
         o 2.1 Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 2.2 History
         o 2.3 Shi'a customs
         o 2.4 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
   * 3 Significance of Ashura for Sunni
         o 3.1 Sunni viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
   * 4 Socio-political aspects
   * 5 Other Islamic commemorations
   * 6 Violence during Ashura
   * 7 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar

--Yusufk 19:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Ashura article, from my (Sunni perspective) the page does not give a balanced point of view. The day is significant to all Muslims, Sunni and Shi'a, but if someone had to read the article, they would not understand that there are two points of view. For instance, statements like "Commemoration of Ashura is not a festival, but rather a sad event for both Shi'as and Sunni Muslims" are misleading. To me and other Sunni's I know, the day was proclaimed to be a holy day by our prophet SAW because of all the positive things that happened on the day. Sunni's are encouraged to spend on their families (gifts etc.). Yes, a sad event did occur on the day, but it is the general opinion of Sunni's I know that this does not detract from the positive events that occurred on the day. Furthermore, the "popular customs" section does not apply to Sunni's but the article gives an impression that it does.

A fair approach to both Sunni and Shi'a would be to separate the article into separate Shi'a and Sunni sections.Yusufk 12:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure that there isn't any differnce among Sunni's sects e.g. Shafei and Hanafi or Arab Sunnis and Pakistani ones or Sunnis who are Zaheri(Ahl Hadith) and Bateni(Sufis)--Sa.vakilian 18:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I will just give one comment about Ashura. Ashura is important to others (who are not Shia) because of one sole reason and that is celebration of liberation of Israelites from Egypt. Prophet Moses (as) kept fast on this day and jews kept in their tradition atleast till the time of the prophet Muhammad. This is the fundamental importance to the large majority Muslim population. And this aspect is not highlighted in the article. IMHO TruthSpreader^reply 01:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. I accept. But please let me improve Yusufk arrangement:

Contents

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 2.1 History
         o 2.2 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a
         o 2.3 Popular customs
         o 2.4 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
         o 2.5 Socio-political aspects
   * 3 Significance of Ashura for Sunni
         o 3.1 Sunni viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
   * 4 Violence during Ashura
   * 5 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar

First, I agree with writing "Significance of Ashura for Sunni" and even put it before Shi'a one but I insist on putting "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali" as the main title and putting "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a" under it. In this way we can put "Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims" and "Popular customs" under it without making misunderstanding.

Second, we should write "popular customs" instead of "Shi'a customs" because it may be against Shi'a Fiqh.

Third, We can put "Socio-political aspects" under "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali".

--Sa.vakilian 02:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This is acceptable to me although it would make more sense to have "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a" on the same level as "Significance of Ashura for Sunni", perhaps a compromise could be:

Contents

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 2.1 History
         o 2.2 Popular customs
         o 2.3 Sunni viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
         o 2.4 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
         o 2.5 Socio-political aspects
   * 3 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a
   * 4 Significance of Ashura for Sunni
   * 5 Violence during Ashura
   * 6 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar

The order in terms of Shi'a and Sunni does not matter to me, I just think that it will be valuable to muslims and non-muslims if this article demonstrates probably the most significant difference in opinion of shi'a and sunni muslims.

Yusufk 09:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this and just one issue has remained. If we separate "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a" from "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali", then what can we write under "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a"?--Sa.vakilian 16:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It is my understanding that of most significance to Shi'a is the Commemoration of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali, which is why I suggested having it as a sub-topic of Significance of Ashura for Shi'a.

Perhaps if we combine it like this: Contents

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a and the Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 2.1 History
         o 2.2 Popular customs
         o 2.3 Sunni viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
         o 2.4 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
         o 2.5 Socio-political aspects
   * 3 Significance of Ashura for Sunni
   * 4 Violence during Ashura
   * 5 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar

Yusufk 09:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you know what's the problem? The problem is the importance of "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali" by itself for many people who are not Shi'a. I mean you can say "Significance of Ashura for Sunni" and it doesn't make any problem, but when you say "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a" it makes some problems. First, some people who mourn for Imam Husayn aren't Muslim and some of them may Sunni. Second, it has become a popular custom which is originated from religion but it isn't restricted to it. For this reason I made a separate part for "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali" a part for "Other Islamic commemorations". "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a and the Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali" doesn't sound good.

I don't want to write an article which based on Shi'a POV and I told to my Sunni friends to participate but they don't. On the other hand "Significance of Ashura for Shi'a" is one of the subtitles of "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali". I understand that this classification in unbalanced and sounds bad too. Therefor I tried not to put Sunni versus Shi'a. I hope that I could explain my POV.--Sa.vakilian 10:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It may not be your intention to write a biased article, but as the article stands right now, it is totally biased to the Shi'a POV. To a neutral person, this article would give the impression that the day of Ashura is centered around the martydon of Husayn. The fact is that this is not true for Sunni's. This article is titled, "Day of Ashura" and not "Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali" and should reflect that. Whether Shia's like it or not, we (Sunni's) do not regard Husayn ibn Ali with the same importance as that of Shia's and the Sunni opinion regard the events that the Prophet highlighted as important to be of more importance on the day. Your friends may be trying to avoid conflict or argument, but thats just the way it is and this, being an encyclopedia should reflect the facts.

Yusufk 14:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not acceptable to have Shi'a or Sunni specific POV placed in sections that can't be distinguished as such. The article now has distinct sections for the Sunni POV and the Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali. I will attempt to fill in more details on the Sunni POV and encourage other Sunni's to do the same. I also urge everyone to refrain from putting biased opinions in the introduction of the article and suggest that Shia's and Sunni's contribute to sections relevant to their beliefs and not attempt to second-guess the beliefs of others.

Yusufk 14:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this arrangement:

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Significance of Ashura for Sunni
   * 3 Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 3.1 History
               + 3.1.1 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a
         o 3.2 Popular customs
         o 3.3 Sunni Viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
         o 3.4 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
         o 3.5 Socio-political aspects
   * 4 Violence during Ashura
   * 5 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar
 

But I prefer this one more:

   * 1 Etymology of Ashura
   * 2 Significance of Ashura for Sunni
   * 3 Commemoration of the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali
         o 3.1 History
         o 3.2 Significance of Ashura for Shi'a
         o 3.3 Popular customs
         o 3.4 Sunni Viewpoint of Martyrdom of Hussayn ibn Ali
         o 3.5 Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali by non-Muslims
         o 3.6 Socio-political aspects
   * 4 Violence during Ashura
   * 5 Ashura in the Gregorian calendar
--Sa.vakilian 19:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That looks fine to me also, I'll make the change. Yusufk 21:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tolerance

If only all Muslims, in fact all believers in general respected each others beliefs in this way. Yes, there are differences of opinion, but we accept that each has a right to his own and accommodate each other. It's never a good idea to offer what you think is someone else's point of view, rather make it possible for them to explain it the way they see it. And when it comes to fights, know that very few will admit being the first wrong doer, so just accept that it should never happen again rather than argue whose fault it is. Yusufk 09:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)