Talk:Delian League

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who said the epigram at the first? Other than that, VERY nice. --MichaelTinkler

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I have to take credit for that, unfortunatly :) Yea, it should probably go, but it kept me motivated :) --Dlamming

I think it's inaccurate. It's entirely like a modern civilization, democracies filled with enlightened philosophers included.

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How come this is at Athenian Empire, rather than Delian League? I know they are basically interchangeable, but isn't Delian League the "proper" term? Adam Bishop 18:15, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Looks like an accident of WP history - the oldest version starts off with the shocking news that the democratic Athenians were also nasty imperialists, so the titling was presumably to make a political point. I would say to move it to Delian League, just because OCD does it that way. :-) Be sure to delete Delian League first so we can do a history-preserving move. Stan 18:52, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm. At first I was surprised to see an article named "Athenian Emmpire". First of all, the use of the term "empire" is an anachronism, as it was used by the Romans ("Imperium") about 300 years later. Besides that, the city-state members of the Delian League (or "Athenian Alliance" as it is known after the transfer of the treasury of the alliance from Delos to Athens) were not considered Athens' territory. They were just under (very) heavy influence of the Athenian political system. Therefore, I think that the term "Empire" is completely irrelevant.--Potmos 10:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Many classical scholars apparently favor the term though - in the OCD under "Delian League" they say "'Athenian empire' might be a better title for this article, but not all students of imperialism admit that Athens had an empire in the full sense", and their article uses "empire" and "imperial" in several places. I'm going to cast my lot with the experts. On anachronism, see empire. Stan 13:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

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The last paragraph gives two oppposite impressions. On first reading, it suggests the Athenian Empire lasted only 27 years and was plagued by revolts, the opposite of stable. On second reading, it emphasizes that the empire endured despite this: very stable. --24.5.247.250

[edit] League v. Empire

The Delian League grows into the Athenian Empire. While the Athenian Empire can always be called the Delian League, the League is not always the Empire, this refers especially to the early League but also to states (such as the cities of Lesbos) that were part of the League but still autonomous from Athens and not an intergrated part of the Empire of the Athenians as they did not pay tribute but perserved a more normal basis of Alliance. [Unknown author]

• This article should be entitled the Athenian Empire OR there should be a separate article for the Athenian Empire. There are separate considerations for both the League and the Empire which lasts until its defeat by Sparta in 404 BCE. Whoever reverted the Athenian Empire article to the Delian League did a genuine injustice to its historical documentation, apparently out of a lack of knowledge. The Athenian Empire undergoes a number of changes and has a larger impact that can not be faithfully documented here without altering the nature of the current article on the Delian League, including the fact that the Delian League becomes a number of subjugated city-states rather than willing participants. That by itself is one of the definitions of "Empire". There is a large substantiation for this, as the "alliance" city-states were either paying taxes to Athens or paying tribute (The Athenian Tribute Lists) to Athens of which there is extensive documentation. Furthermore, by accounting for this "grouping" as a league and not an Empire, the economic undertones that supported its formation cannot be included here, in spite of its central importance to the rise of power of Athens. At the demise of the Athenian Empire which survived several different wars, it is questionable if there still is a Delian League, since much of Athens control over Greece and the Aegean has eroded. In any case, you will find scholarly books on both topics, the Athenian Empire and the Delian League, in any firstclass library - hence this article should be split...

Stevenmitchell 02:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• This article should be at Delian League, which is clearly the subject of 2/3 of it. I see no great advantage to a split, especially since 454 is a convential line. The League was always the formal basis of the alliance, until Athens released her allies in 404. Septentrionalis 06:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that there's consensus to move this article to Athenian Empire, so I'm removing the listing at WP:RM. Please let me know if there needs to be a page move after all. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)