Talk:Denglisch

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Shouldn't this page be at "Denglisch"? Maximus Rex 17:15, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to exist a mutual agreement on which combination of constituent parts from "englis(c)h" "deutsch" and "german" makes up which kind of semi-language (english spoken by germans or the other way round). This is why I put them all together into one article (see the "vice versa"). Even if anyone knew better, I wouldn't opt for splitting it up - as for moving, I don't mind. But I think Google spits out most results for "germish" Kku 06:55, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Germisch 2 "I become a hamburger" 3 Removed text 4 Body Bag 5 ambiguous article structure and article title 6 Doomed from the Start 7 Ponglish? 8 Banning Denglish? 9 Das hat Sinn mit der Deppenleerstelle 10 ein Berliner 11 'Germanization of English words' 12 other terms 13 List of Pseudo-anglicisms in German 14 Influence on grammar and spelling 15 Translations 16 UK pronunciation of "Braun" 17 Denglisch in German dictionaries 18 Fuck

[edit] Germisch

Thanks for this excellent page. As the son of a German migrant to Canada, I grew up with enough semi-English sentence structure and vocabulary that I had to re-learn quite a lot when I finally attended German class in High School (thinking I was in for an easy grade). Famous scraps of Germisch in my family's lore include my Opa's utterance about the dog; "Rudi hat ein Rabbit weg ge-chased!"

It's interesting that this is happening in Germany, too.

listen to the globalized citizen and you will find it everywhere... ;) -- Kku 11:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

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From the native german's point of view, Denglisch is the word for intermixing english vocabulary into the german language. The first example given is a very fine one.

In the youth and hacker language, denglisch is widely spread. But, as stated, most marketers pick it up to sound hip and top-notch. By now, the german translation would rather sound boring. "Kundendienst" ("service point") really is a nice example. But there are people who are getting annoyed by denglisch...

--Dave (native german)

and rightly so. -- Kku 11:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC) also very native

By the way, it's "widespread", not "widely spread".

--jae 04:40, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC) (another native German)

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I'm not a native English speaker, so you might feel the need to spell check my changes... Btw, is there a Template:GrammarEditorNeeded banner?

Lachaume 19:20, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "I become a hamburger"

Years ago, when I was working in Germany, one of the natives there confided in me that his wife once made a lasting impression saying this in a fast-food restaurant in Florida. (Of course, it was his wife, & not him. ;-) And during the same time one native made the same mistake practicing his English over this false friend; his English was otherwise far better than my German. I came to conclude this is a common mistake amongst Germans who haven't practiced their English sufficiently.

A minor point -- although it annoyed me after a while -- was the confusion of "Bye-bye" for "Tschuess/Tschau", which caused the speaker to sound as if she/he were speaking to a very young child (IMHO, a better equivalent would be the American English "Later", or the British "Cheers"). But then slang/colloquialisms are the hardest parts of a language to acquire; even some native speakers never quite get it right. -- llywrch 17:16, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text

As with other pidgins, the adaptation also takes the other route (..)

Germish is no pidgin! Read the introduction of this article and compare with the definition of pidgin.

Ich erinnere, dass... (I remember that...)
Properly: Ich erinnere mich, dass... (roughly: I make myself remember that...)

I have never heard that structure and a Google search clearly shows that it's far from being "widespread" like the article claims.

oh, please. this expression even made it to a radio broadcast i heard lately. uttered by (otherwise) educated people. trust me. the transitive form is spreading. -- Kku 11:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Compare the french verb "souvenir" which is approximately equivalent to the German one. The provincial motto of Quebec is "Je me souviens" meaning "I remember" or literally "I make myself remember".

"Ich erinnere, dass..."', is not Denglish, but this transitive form is (and always has) been very common in Northern Germany (Hamburg and surroundings). I am not sure whether it is considered incorrect at all. In any case, it is just a peculiarity of Northern German dialect, and not wrong only because of its similarity to English. esmi 08:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

YUCK. Using the transitive form is incorrect in that particular context. When expressing that one remembers something, the verb erinnern is *always* used in its reflexive form. Erinnern in transitive form is used when one wishes to express that the subject is *reminding* someone else, as in Ich erinnere ihn an den Termin. Cheers, Schmiddtchen 15:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Body Bag

I think I'm almost fluent in Germish and I probably used all of the examples but "Body Bag" at least once in my lifetime. If someone told me about a "body bag", I'd assume he/she was looking for something to carry a (dead) body. It's literal translation to German IMHO could be "Leichensack". Neither Leichensack nor Body Bag has anything in common with German Rucksack. I don't think this example should be used in the article.

BTW: As Backpacking is now a widely understood Germish word, ppl from Germany will probably use the term "backpack" more often in future. Thus Germish helps speaking better English in that case. --JanKorger 19:50, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

As a native speaker I back up that opinion here. The term "body bag" is not of common use, it's simply a term used seldomly by internet-shops to distinguish different kinds of backpacks. the term does not "refer" to a special kind of backpack. Any person asked in the street what a "body-bag" might be, would in most cases have no idea. --141.15.30.1 11:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"Bodybag" in German refers to those backpacks with only one strap who've been fashionable for a while, e.g. http://www.neckermann.de/shop/bodybag-36.asp. The point is that this is a word coined in Germany and is unknown in the English speaking world in that meaning, akin to "dressman", "talkmaster", "evergreen" etc. The added hilariousness comes from the fact that this word exists in English anyway, but has a completely different meaning there, which most Germans are unaware of. Imagine native English speaking tourists in passing a supermarket in Germany plastered with ads for "BODYBAGS only EUR 15.99". 213.73.114.95 21:09, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Hilarious! These small "rucksacks" are called "bum bags" in the UK and "fanny packs" in the US. Leibniz 20:14, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I reverted the last change mady by user 216.254.126.167: The word "Body Bag" is just a strange creation, it is not a literal translation of the word "Rucksack". The literal translation would be "back bag" or something like this. "Ruck-" derives from "Rücken" (back) or from "Rückseite"/"zurück" (reverse). esmi 08:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, actually I life in Germany for about 21 years now. And i can assure you, I never heard Body bag used for backpack. Probably the difficulty is, that the germans never would translate Ruck( from Rücken = back) with body( what would Körper). So a Body bag would in Germany be translated to "Körpersack" which most people would interpret as "Leichensack", what is the english meaning of body bag. And to be honest, with that neckerman thing, just think of "handy" for mobile. What would be a much better example for this section.

Living in Germany, too. And it seems that "body bag" thing is taking over. LMFAO. Sorry, but it's pretty hilarious. You can buy all sorts of designer "body bags" from Camel, Jack Wolfskin to sOliver (search google Germany - sometimes called "city bag" or "bodyrucksack"). Though I haven't met anybody who actually said "body bag" to his Rucksack in real life (yet).

As a native speaker, I had no idea what "body bag" might mean before reading this discussion. Now I remember "those backpacks with only one strap". But I can't imagine someone saying "body bag" instead of "Rucksack", which IMHO is the word that 99.99% of Germans would use to refer to a rucksack or backpack. Even "Backpack" is VERY rarely used in Germany, maybe to refer to a BIG rucksack, whereas "Backpacking" and "Backpacker" are commonly used and understood especially by young people and have the same meaning as in English.

[edit] ambiguous article structure and article title

This article is wandering between "English influences to the German language" vs. "Improper English spoken by German natives". IMO, they are two different kinds of animals, the former is German and latter is English. The introduction at the top seems to define the former, but later in the article, the latter is mixed in. Looks like Germish is not in the same catagory as Engrish or Chinglish which are bad English spoken by Japanese and Chinese respectively. Kowloonese 19:31, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

could we reach an agreement by stating that while some english influences to german are harmless or even useful (as in tech speak), most owe their existence to a ruinous tendency towards hype? that border is fuzzy and floating. hype of today can make it into the Duden tomorrow. -- Kku 11:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

While Spanglish and Denglish are bad Spanish and Germen respectively, Engrish and Chinglish are bad English. Is there a similar term for bad English due to the influence of Germen? Kowloonese 00:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Doomed from the Start

"Denglish" and its various siblings apparently comprise non-idiomatic errors produced by primary language contamination which native speakers find amusing. As much base humor, it has a victim, but since it's all in "fun" (now a good German word), that aspect is readily passed over. Why, for instance, is there no companion article holding English and American students of German up to ridicule for similar errors? Since that is the case, isn't it rather pointless to attempt a transformation of this article into a serious observation of the interaction between German and English? Janko 13:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)Janko

[edit] Ponglish?

The "Denglisch" adaptation of English words into an inflected language is done in Polish also - which is even more inflected than German because even the consonants can change as you decline a noun. For example, "Aga" is the brand name of a solid-fuel cooker widely used in rural Britain. That naturally declines as follows:

"Aga zgasła" - The Aga has gone out. "Zgaś Agę" - Put the Aga out. "Wsadź mięso do Agi" - Put the meat in the Aga. "Mięso jest w Adze" - The meat is in the Aga.

... and so on, to the bemusement of English-speakers.

Oddly enough the same does not apply to English verbs taken into Polish. Importation of verbs is rare (as it is in Denglisch) and is done by adding one of the universal "verbification" suffixes such as -ować. Compare the humorous English -ify or -ificate.

[edit] Banning Denglish?

I can across this article about a town that wants to ban Denglish [1]. Is this town (Mühlhausen) or their actions noteworthy enough for inclusion in this article? ^BlankVerse 11:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The town heads probably just wanted some press attention. Though in principle this sounds very löblich. Maybe with the right connections, they can get some help from Winzigweich Konzern? I'm thinking about something like the automatic correction feature in Wort für Fenster. Aragorn2 21:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Das hat Sinn mit der Deppenleerstelle

Glauben Sie es mir: Ich bin ein Deutscher. Believe me, I am a German.

1. Anglicism: Das macht Sinn. Correct German: Das hat Sinn.

Example: There's no point in that. = Das hat keinen Sinn. [2]

2. Deppenapostroph, equivalently: Deppenleerstelle (moron's blank, cf. Deppen Leerstelle).

Schöne Grüße - 84.146.209.173 16:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Ich glaub's Dir und ich auch. Aber ... (for the benefit of others I continue in English)

"There's no point in that" (= "Das hat doch eh keinen Sinn!")

is not the same as

"That makes sense." (="Das ergibt keinen Sinn!"

The former is a normal translation, whereas the latter has spawned an Anglicism. The parallel in the first case would be: (*) "Es is kein Punkt (or other horrible translations) darin!"

Und Grüße zurück, Str1977 17:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ein Berliner

The blunders section should really have the splendid "Ich bin ein Berliner" popularised by John F Kennedy which I understand to mean something on the lines of "I am a jam doughnut" (or in his terms, donut), and would welcome any verifications or clarifications before adding it....dave souza 22:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC) (Schottishe). And on checking the linked Kennedy page finds a Ich bin ein Berliner#"Jelly doughnut" urban legend section. Well, Wikipedia's certainly informative. ...dave souza 22:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Dave, it's an urban legend, as the article Ich bin ein Berliner makes clear. I guess you've figured this out.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T)

[edit] 'Germanization of English words'

I can't see what's wrong (or strange) about these two examples. The 'already' seems a little out of place, but that's it. — mæstro ^t/c, 09:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] other terms

Is any of the terms "Engleutsch, Genglish, Germish, Germanglish, or Ginglish" common in English? If so, they should be reintroduced, as I removed them, because they are not common in German for sure. -- 790 12:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Pseudo-anglicisms in German

Infos

This article is hilarious. :)

But as a native speaker of German, I can't see that the word "Infos" is any kind of anglizism. The German word "Information" is simply abbreviated to "Info" (singular) and the plural form of this is, in a correct use of German grammar rules, "Infos". Other opinions? esmi 11:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's a new addition, which I have now removed; it's not pseudo-English at all. Nor is "no name" - which is overused and sometimes oddly used in German, but is not all that different from its English usage. I chopped it out as well.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 12:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

esmi that´s correct, I think someone is getting mixed up with the fact that "over-zealous" Germans when speaking English, tend to speak of "Informations" and "Standing-Ovations" both of which DO NOT have a plural form in English. Regarding "no-name", that was my addition. The reason I added it, is that it is often used in German, e.g. especially on TV reports about previously unknown sportsmen/women. It seems quite OK to use it in German, but in English it would considered "rude" or "bad-mannered" to call someone a "no-name", daher, the different meaning!. If prohibit has lost his onions over it, it´s OK to delete it. :o) IsarSteve 13:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S.ProhibitOnions I realise you are involved with Onions, but you don´t have to CHOP out entries, cutting them would also be OK (siehe: I chopped it out as well) LOL IsarSteve 13:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh-heh. "Infos" is perfectly fine German, but a common German mistake when speaking English, but is therefore not Denglisch (although other Denglisch words often end up in a German-speaker's English vocabulary because they think they are English. But common German mistakes in English don't belong in this article.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 18:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence on grammar and spelling

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Of late there is a German trend to combine words according to English rules by writing them in succession. Following the German grammar rules this is wrong.

   Reparatur Annahme instead of Reparaturannahme

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Let me clarify this a bit. It´s wrong according to the old grammar rules. But there has been a "Rechtschreibreform" (= reform grammar and spelling rules), who changed some rules quite a bit. It was possible to choose between the old and the new rules the last few years, but this year the new rules have become mandatory. According to the new rules combining words like "Reperatur Annahme" is the correct way. But it seems there´ll be a "reform of the reform", so that both "Reperatur Annahme and Reperaturannahme" will be correct. 81.201.224.13 07:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)FreddyE 07:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey FreddyE, you're wrong on this. "Reparatur Annahme" is not at all correct, also not after the Rechtschreibreform. The change of some grammatical rules (already some years ago) did not affect the combination of nouns, it changed some possibilities concerning the separate writing of verbs and adjectives, such as "kennen lernen" instead of "kennenlernen" etc. But "Reparatur Annahme" ist totally incorrect and...well, Denglish! esmi 11:55, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Uuups...got it mixed up there. Bah..."to hell" with the rules. Since the "Schlechtschreibreform" confused the hell out of me anyway, I write just like I want. ;-) FreddyE 19:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

I suggest the section headed "Translations" ought to be removed from the article. Interesting as it may be to see how Babelfish translates equivalent sections of the German- and English-language Wikipedias (only equivalent, it should be noted -- the originals do not say precisely the same things), the section is really an illustration of the quality of machine translation in general rather than of the phenomenon of "Denglisch" in particular, and therefore does not, in my view, properly belong here. -- Picapica 15:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK pronunciation of "Braun"

Quote: An oddity is that in UK advertisements the company name Braun is pronounced Brawn to sound like the English word ["brawn"]

Not really an oddity when you consider how "sight-pronunciation" mangling of foreign proper nouns is more often the rule than the exception in English. Just consider, amongst many other possible examples (with German-spelling renditions of the commonly heard English pronunciations):

• Volkswagen --> Wolksuaggen
• Löwenbräu --> Lohenbrau
• Schröder --> Schrooder

The English haven't yet even learned how to pronounce the name of the man who has managed their national football team for the last five years: Sven-Göran Eriksson. His second name is almost inevitably pronounced more like the Serbian/Croatian name "Goran", now and again semi-correctly as "Yorun"; however, most English speakers seem utterly unconvinced that umlauts are anything more than frivolous foreign curlicues which signify no more than pure affectation and believe that they should therefore always be studiously ignored. Sigh... -- Picapica 16:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the pronunciations of Volkswagen, Löwenbräu, and Braun listed above are officially promulgated by these companies themselves, I'm not sure what your complaint is. If Braun prefer to be known by a pseudo-foreign-sounding name than one that sounds rather dull in English (i.e., "Brown"), that's their choice. (Braun is a division of Procter & Gamble.)

AFAIK, Eriksson also accepts the anglicized pronunciation of his name. OTOH, the pronunciation of Schröder is frequently wrong, I agree, and from people such as journalists who ought to know better; but then again, it's rare - for example - to hear a German newsreader get Kim Jong Il's name right, too. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 16:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

And now, of course, we have Chancellor "Mörkel". I think it's because it's now regarded, especially in journalistic circles - from which I don't exclude the BBC - as unfashionably "élitist" for a person to demonstrate that they've made an effort to find out how a name is actually pronounced by its bearer and are trying to approximate that pronunciation at least. -- Picapica 20:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Denglisch in German dictionaries

"The word Denglisch is not listed in German dictionaries. The closest German word for it is "Kauderwelsch""

This information is outdated. The most important German dictionary, the "Duden" knows about "Denglisch"

1. Deng|lisch, das; -[s] [zusgez. aus Deutsch u. Englisch] (abwertend): Mischung aus Deutsch u. Englisch.

84.165.241.15 02:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The complete entry in Duden (Duden Band 1, 23. revision, Page 281) reads

dẹng|lisch (abwertend für deutsch mit [zu] vielen englischen Ausdrücken vermischt); Dẹng|lisch, das; -[s] (abwertend)

what means something like

dẹng|lisch (pejorative for german mixed up with [too] many english expressions); Dẹng|lisch, das (noun, neutrum); -[s] (pejorative)

-- de:EmCee 12:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fuck

See the section of the fuck page about German. I think that "fuck" deserves some kind of mention on this page; "fuck" is used as an exclamation with increasing frequency, and I (rarely) hear "fucking" as an adjective. I'm wary of putting in a see also to fuck, as it would be particularly vague, but am not sure how to integrate it into the page itself. Ideas? samwaltz 00:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)