Talk:Driver's license

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What is the history of drivers' licenses? What countries first issued them? Was that in the 1930's or when?

Contents 1 Transferring a license 2 Terminology 3 Massachusetts 4 history 5 New York 6 Europe 7 Driver's License History 8 PR China 9 Driving a privilege or a right? 10 Languages 11 US-drivers licence 12 Computers being social tools as opposed to cars??? 13 PSV 14 NPOV 15 needs cleaned up 16 Suez, and the queen 17 Major article restructure 18 Word Choice Issue 19 International considerations 20 Cleaving the Article and Driver's Licence scans 21 Ages in one country and the next.. 22 Zacharias Moussaoui

[edit] Transferring a license

There is a lot of interesting (and useful) detail about how to transfer your old license for a new one when you move. Perhaps it's not "encyclopedic", but this article already has a lot of un-encyclopedic detail, and for comparison purposes, it would be useful to have all this information in one place. As an example, if you move to Washington State in the US, you must take a "road test" to get a license, no matter how long you've been driving other places. If you move to New York, you simply need to turn in your old license, but you need to bring your actual Social Security card. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.81.34.199 (talk) 09:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Terminology

To clarify the confusion about where it's called what:

Hong Kong: http://www.td.gov.hk/about_us/history_of_transport_department/licensing_services/development_and_changes_of_driving_licences_/hong_kong_driving_licence/index.htm (driving licence)

UK: http://dvla.gov.uk/drivers/drivers.htm (driving licence)

Ireland: http://oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/full_driving_licence.html (driving licence)

Singapore: http://www.spf.gov.sg/faq/ndl/ (driving licence)

United States:

http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/press/archives/newddl.htm (driver license)

http://www.mass.gov/rmv/rmvnews/2004/newids.htm (driver's license)

http://www.aot.state.vt.us/DMV/LICENSES/OPERATOR.htm (operator license)

Australia: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/downloads/licenclassindex_dl1.html (driver licence)

New Zealand: http://marcel-lancelle.de/private/fw/stf_dl_b.jpg (driver licence)

84.147.134.209 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massachusetts

The driving age in Massachusetts is listed as 16 1/2 years old. This is untrue. You may apply for a learners permit at the age of 16 and 1 day. The minimum age to apply for a LICENSE (not a permit) is in fact 16 1/2.

         I changed the list of driving ages...Massachusetts is no longer on the state that are not 16 years old.

in massachusetts, there was one age for no driver's education, and a different age for those with driver's education. I do not know if this has changed or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.81.34.199 (talk) 08:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] history

I know from having been told by my grandad (whos 92) that 'when he was a lad' you went to collect a drivers license because you needed one for your job (ie cars were so expensive that you drove somebody elses - as their chauffeur), or (as happened for him) a superior in the army could "license" you to drive. The general population didn't have or need to have a driving license. Selphie 14:30, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In many cities (eg. London, Paris) in the nineteenth century cabdrivers had to be licensed, and numbers displayed on the vehicle. This seems to have been ancestral to similar licensing being spread to the population at large. Possibly other drivers, like chauffeurs, coach drivers, or freight drivers were licensed to. Hackney drivers in London were licensed (and made to wear badges) after the model of the Thames Watermen; it was resisted as a stigma. --Squid Faced Tony

It's interesting that when drivers licenses were introduced in Moscow in 1900, the regulations were extremely lax compared with cabrivers. Motorists should only procure neccesary papers and show the physical ability to drive before the authorities, while cabdrivers had to pass rather strict examinations. --Khathi 03:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Before motorized vehicles, there was licensing of certain classes of drivers of horsedrawn and waterborne vehicles. This should be in the history.

[edit] New York

The driving age in New York is not 17! It is illegal for people under 18 to drive in New York City unless they are New York State license holders who are 17 and have passed Driver's Education. The driving age in the rest of the state remains 16 years old. 16-17 year olds living in New York City can legally obtain a driver's license, despite the fact that they may not legally drive within New York City, and driving in the rest of the state is allowed for them. This should be corrected.

Corrected with notes about the graduated licensing law. Steve J 23:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Europe

Since the EU has more or less standardised their driving licence design and regulation, there should be a column "European Union". See the German Wiki-Entry [1] for example. -217.194.34.124 11:48, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Before there were driver's licenses for automobiles, there were bicycle licenses. Read the first chapter of Franz Kafka "The Prisoner" where Josef K is arrested. The first thing that Josef K does is present his jailers with his Bicycle license and then demand that they provide identification.

In the Wright Brother News at http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/aero/wright/background/timeline/time_1899.html there is a side item regarding the first American woman to obtain a driver's license at Kitty Hawk, NC in 1899. Picture included. submitted to WIKI by Jenny Raabe

[edit] Driver's License History

Ok, from a few of these posts, I'll see if I can distill a few improvements to this article.

• 1) Who came up with the concept of requiring a driver's license, when, where?

• 2) Dates of the presentation of the idea and subsequent implementation, in the respective countries.

• 3) Evolution of the use of these from simply permission to drive to their current use as a valid form of ID, particularly in the US. Was there any resistance from the general populace?

• 4) State revocation of licenses for driving violations. Also, can and do states (state in both the US and general sense) revoke licenses for infractions and crimes which have nothing to do with driving? Suspension of licenses is not covered yet.

• 5) Situations such as old folks driving? What about disqualifications for people of the age to drive who would normally be allowed to? Is there any information on mandatory revocation ages for old folks?

• 6) Feature creep as regards driver's licenses (True story: I was talking with my friends, outside a local watering hole, after untethering my bike, and a cop demanded my driver's license. When I told him I didn't have it with me (I wouldn't have given it anyway, I'd done nothing wrong), he asked how I would prove who I was. I simply told him he'd have to take my word for it. He wasn't happy, but didn't do anything adverse.

• 7) The future of driver's licenses in various places.

JD 06:48, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've added info from the NYT archive on the earliest DL laws in North America. Unfortunately, those old articles don't exactly state when the French or Germans came up with their laws and who was first. I guess it'll be up to French- or German-speaking WP users to do that research! --Coolcaesar 20:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PR China

I have heard that in large cities like Beijing and Shanghai there is an execption for foreigner to have the licence changed. They can use an international permit in order to rent a car but it can only be driven within the city limits. Can somebody confirm this? -ThorstenS 10:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Driving a privilege or a right?

My understanding is that the driver's license in the US was not always required and driving was a right and not a privilege. This stands up to reason when you consider that the mode of transportation being replaced was the horse, horse driven buggy, or oxen and wagon. None of these required a license or had age restrictions. Driving animals was common place and the motorized vehicle was considered unusual. Before I left my hometown in 1971, there was a law still on the books that required drivers of automobiles to call ahead to the town constable. Ostensibly this was so he could warn the horse owners in the city that a motor vehicle was coming into town.

I would like to know exactly how the concept of licensing drivers came about and became accepted in everyday life.

Why didn't the same thing happen with aircraft and boating licenses?

Doug

Driving is a right not a privilege, at least in the UK it is - although some politicians seem to think the opposite. I've changed the word grant [a licence] to issue. Grant implies it's a privilege. Arcturus 18:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

In the United States the operation of a vehicle is treated as a privilege granted by the state that is revocable at any time. For example, California Vehicle Code Section 14607.4 begins as follows: "The Legislature finds and declares all of the following: (a) Driving a motor vehicle on the public streets and highways is a privilege, not a right." Numerous sections of the California Vehicle Code refer to the "privilege of operating a motor vehicle" — just run a Google search. --Coolcaesar 02:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

For a country that prides itself on being the beacon of democracy in the world, and yet believes that the state grants privileges to the people, is absolutely amazing. Surely it's the other way round. Still, I obviously can't argue with the facts of US law. In the UK, driving certainly isn't defined as a privilege - so far as I know, but as I alluded to earlier, there are plenty of bumptious politicians and other assorted bureaucrats who consider it so. I think the term issue licence covers all eventualities. Arcturus 12:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, although the US law identifies driving as a privilege, now a days it is really treated as a right although, it is a privilege that may still be revoked for reasons. Mac Domhnaill 01:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

When I was reading the book on Vehicle Traffic Law (which I added a cite for to the MUTCD article) there was some explanation of this. If I recall correctly, the reason for why it is treated as a privilege is due to some early legal decisions treating gasoline-powered automobiles as a public nuisance because they were noisy and extremely dangerous. Because states have plenary power to ban public nuisances, the courts reasoned that they could also ban automobiles if they wished. In turn, automobiles are allowed to operate on the roads only at the pleasure of the state. That's how we got from the original concept of the right of driving a wagon or stagecoach or riding a horse, etc. to the modern idea of the privilege of operating a motor vehicle. I forgot to write down the page numbers for that section, though. --Coolcaesar 19:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Driving a car on your own property is a right, hence the reason that a driver's license is not required to drive on your own land (though allowing a small child to do so would probably be considered endangerment). Driving on public roads is generally legally considered a privilege, which is why you need a license (that can be revoked). --SodiumBenzoate 09:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Languages

Is it really necessary to have the Chinese and Japanese translations of "driver's license" on the page. The only reason the first paragraph contains all the different variations is because licenses are termed differently in different English-speaking countries. Perhaps it should be confined to the different English words for license on the English page. After all, it isn't as though driver's licenses are inherently Chinese or Japanese.

[edit] US-drivers licence

I have seen an older US-drivers licence (North Carolina) - the back side was machine readabel. is this true for all US-states. Wahat informations are coded? A picture of a back-side of an us-licence would be nice--84.137.12.100 17:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a magnetic strip on the back of most licenses (for example, California). I vaguely recall that it may carry in a simple digital format the same textual information printed on the front of the card. I'm not sure, though. Anyone know more about this? --Coolcaesar 01:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

My Texas issued drivers license also has a magnetic strip as does my friends from Ohio. Mrrightguy10 06:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Computers being social tools as opposed to cars???

Some of the reasons for decline that are listed in this article are downright absurd and show a deep lack of understanding of teenagers today. There is no way that someone would have higher social status for owning a computer rather than a car. It's also absurd to say that teenagers find that it's "more convenient" to have their parents drive them, and several points on the list are things that have remained the same for the past fifty years (ex. busy lives with atheletics and extra curricular activities). This needs to be fixed. --Berserk798 18:23, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. The entire list reeks of "original research" or "personal viewpoint" and should be deleted unless and until whomever contributed it can come back with supporting citations. --Coolcaesar 23:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I was the person (under an unlogged-in name) who began the list of reasons. Many of them are found in that LA Times article mentioned. However, others have added to them. I fixed the two reasons declared "absurd" by Berserk798. I changed what was likely a misunderstanding of what the reason meant. -BrianClass07 16:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] PSV

The article says PSV stands for "Passenger Service Vehicle", isn't it supposed to be "Public Service Vehicle"? The information about PSV licences in the UK appears accurate.

[edit] NPOV

I saw this in the US section: "and more recently, the so called war on terror." Isn't that POV? I can't figure out what exactly to change it to though. --Mosquitopsu 20:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] needs cleaned up

This article needs some moderate cleaning up, as well as the expulsion of certain, ahhhh shall we say "author commentary" contained therein (ie there are a few opinion pieces)

I concur. This article is a MESS! Unfortunately, I'm not a transportation lawyer, so I don't know where to begin cleaning it up. --Coolcaesar 03:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suez, and the queen

Footnote 5 points to a DVLA press release giving various facts about the history of licensing in the UK. One of these is that driving tests were suspended during the Suez Crisis. Why was this done? Can anyone add this information? Another fact, given in the paragraph but not appearing in the source, is that the queen doesn't require a driving licence. This is plausible, as she doesn't require a passport since they are issued in her name, but still, it needs a source. The footnoting as it stands is misleading, as the page linked to says nothing about the queen. 86.136.94.95 02:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major article restructure

I have performed a significant restructure/shift-around of this article in an attempt to improve its quality and coherence. It made sense to me to shift the history section from the bottom of the article to the top, and also place generic sections (like organ donation and its use as identification) up the top, before launching into specifics about driver's licenses in different countries. I also rearranged the country specifics section to alphabetical order, because previously there seemed to be no order to it whatsoever (perhaps the order in which people added them to the article?). I have also split Canada off from the United States and given it its own section, because most of the joint section consisted of paragraphs starting with "In the U.S.", indicating there isn't too much similarity between the two countries' systems.

There may be residual repetition in the article, and also instances of over-linking (or not linking the first instance of a word, but linking a later instance). Please do clean these up if you see them.

Finally, the "Australia" section is quite incoherent and hodge-bodge. It is NSW-centric and needs to be fixed. I might get around to it another late night. - Mark 15:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word Choice Issue

I have a pretty big issue with some lines of text in this article tipified by this example from the third to last paragraph on 'Australia': "...or the more grammatically correct "Driving Licence"

In what way is the term "Driving Licence" more grammatically correct than any other? What does grammaticality have to do with anything at all here? Compound noun conventions may have a grammatical tendency, but there isn't a strict grammatical structure, only convention. As a linguist, I see this point as non-factual and sorely opinionated. --Alex DG 15:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Australia section is pretty poor and incoherent overall. I plan to overhaul it within the next week. - Mark 05:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed "grammatically correct". Tocharianne 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] International considerations

"although European Union drivers who move from one EU state to another can continue driving on their original licences until the age of 70.". This is not correct. If you move from one EU country to another (and also EEA countries like Norway and Switzerland) you have to exchange your old licence for a new one. You do not have to take another test, your old licence is accepted in lieue of a test and is sent back to the issuing country to be cancelled.

Citation: get a copy of the British driving licence application form from a Post Office. It now contains a section for exchanging a EU/EEA licence for a British one. TiffaF 06:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaving the Article and Driver's Licence scans

I was wondering if it were possible to create a catalogue of driver's licences from different states. Is this legal? I could certainly understand the illegality of such a database, but I would be interested to see what the ID's of different states look like.

Also, we should consider cleaving this article by country, keeping the main article as a link to multiple daughter articles. Anyone object? --Reid 21:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ages in one country and the next..

I'm a British Citizen, say I had (hypothetically) a drivers license and I was 17 would it be illegal for me to drive in Germany (who's driving age is 18), even if I was fully insured? 62.136.225.242 21:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zacharias Moussaoui

Do we really need his drivers license on here?