Talk:Duke of Wellington's Regiment

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The last time I checked, this was the 'Free Encyclopedia', for anyone to freely edit. This page is a mess, so all I do is try to clean it up. I have not attempted to change anything, beyond adding links. I have accepted that the Colours are displayed in a particular order, so isn't it better that they all be in a line? Shouldn't the 'Great Duke' have a link to his own page? Shouldn't the link to the regiment's website be available? User: Hammersfan 19/1/05. 11:52am

Regrettably; your editing has changed the layout of the page several times, you have changed the pixel size of the regimental colours, placed them in different shaped frames, moved them and the text around to different positions which has affected the layout, you have deleted blank lines used as spaces for formatting, causing following sections to move up the page and into the sections above, you have deleted some images (a VC Medal) and changed the layout so other images (the last two Victoria Cross recipients for example) did not appear on the page. You have moved a template's position from the top of a page to halfway down it. All these changes have resulted in phone calls to our Archive staff by readers about how bad the page looked, requiring repeated attempts by our staff to sort the mess out. which was then again edited by yourself. If so many people call us because they don't like the way you have changed things then we feel bound to change it back. Sorry if you don't like it yourself, but most others do. Please note the layout is designed to look ok on a standard 15" screen at 1400 x 1050 pixels viewed full width without side bars. We don't wish to stop any person from constructive editing it is their right. The wording 'The Great Duke' was put in as a name for one specific person in history ie the first Duke, the linked page refers to the title and subsequently all 8 Dukes of Wellington, not all of them were linked to the regiment. As for putting a link to the Regiments website, we did not feel it to be a good idea to put in a link to a Ministry of Defence edited site, so just showed the address for those who wish to view it, please note that the MOD requires all it's regiments to have their sites controlled by their webmaster after April 5th 2005 with others not permitted, I do seem to recall being advised wikipedia did not like having links to external sites which are not open source, but stand corrected if that is not so. We also do not accept personal abuse as per a message on one of our staffs talk page. Duke of Wellingtons Archives Dept 19/1/05 10:41pm

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a personage of the status of this Great Duke is more than likely to have his own page on here. I also do not recall making any abusive message to anyone. Last time I checked, 'mind your own business' is hardly abusive, unless that particular individual is sensitive. However, I do not appreciate threats to try and have me banned, simply for doing what this whole site is supposed to be for, and feel that I have the right to defend myself. User:Hammersfan 21/1/05 20:40

Sorry to intrude on private grief, but the present formatting and layout of the page is quite poor, and simply reverting User:Hammersfan's assistance is hardly helpful. Some comments:

• The page should look fine on any size of screen with any resolution.
  • At present, on my screen, the left-floated image overlaps the left margin, and the two top templates crowd out the main article text. An image and two templates competing for the top of the page is not helpful - Template:Duke_of_Wellingtons_Regiment_history could usefully be moved further down the page or incorporated into Template:The Duke of Wellington's Regiment.
  • The colours display in a mess all over the page.
• There is a lot of good information, but the text is rather dense and could do with a good copyedit. In particular, the lead is not a good summary of the whole article: the second lead paragraph could usefully be incorporated into the body of the article and a replaced by a new, gentler introduction.
• The "Other information" section duplicates information in Template:The Duke of Wellington's Regiment
• The list of VCs is great, but surely the photos of each VC holders should appear on the person's page, rather than in a gallery here.

It also seems a little peculiar for User:Richard Harvey to call himself "Duke of Wellingtons Archives Dept" (I see anon reverts to the main article by User:62.252.96.6, User:62.252.96.9 and User:62.252.96.10 have used a similar designation - e.g. this one "Layout corrected by Regimental Headquarters Archives Department"). Are you connected in some official way with the Regiment? In any event, this is a Wikipedia page, not the homepage of the Regiment: anyone can make any edits they like, subject, of course, to others editing away afterwards. That is the wiki way. But in any event, I am rather surprised that edits to this page have resulted in "phone calls to our Archive staff by readers about how bad the page looked, requiring repeated attempts by our staff to sort the mess out". "Archive staff" (whoever they may be) as not responsible for this article in any way.

Finally, a link to the regiment's home page sounds perfectly sensible. Other than avoiding a forest of marginally relevant external links, I am not aware of any policy to limit links to open source site (if there were, there would be very few external links!). HTH. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:48, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Template:Duke_of_Wellingtons_Regiment_history can probably be dropped. I made it back in the old days before categories and the links are now contained in the "Reasons for creation" section of the other template. Also the external links for VC recipients to victoriacross.net is now completely pointless as that site has migrated its content to Wikipedia (Wikipedia:WikiProject Victoria Cross Reference Migration). Geoff/Gsl 12:01, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks - I've just completed a very substantial copyedit, so I'd be grateful if there was a discussion here before it is reverted wholesale.

Rather than dropping Template:Duke_of_Wellingtons_Regiment_history, the neatest solution I could find was to merge it into Template:The Duke of Wellington's Regiment (it is also used on the pages for the 33rd and 76th, and I've adopted the same approach on those pages too).

I've also moved a few images around (for example, I've put the four Colours in a table so they should display in the correct relationship to each other: please complain if they are in the wrong place); added subheadings, wikified generally, and so on. I think it looks a great deal better, but please discuss here if you have objections to the changes. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:36, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The changes done by me user:Richard Harvey are mainly uploading of images (yes I am connected with the regiment I've ten years active service ,back in the 70's and I am currently the Regimental Photo Archivist at the Regimental Headquarters in Halifax) when I started to put in images I have always tried to preserve the layout that was created by prior users, it looked good, I've not done any major text edits that has been done by others more knowledable than myself, changes marked by archives dept were done on a consensus of others in the dept, other's done by myself at home hence the change in designation.

With regard to the Colours I've uploaded. I wanted to show these in the manner in which they are carried on Parade ie in a line with the regulation colours in the centre, On my screen they appeared like that (15" flatscreen at 1400x1050 pixel) with the text at the right hand side, at the moment they appear in a box formation, with the text below, I could redo and upload them as one image if people think it is better.

The combined badge that has been swapped from further down the page into the Template in place of the regimental cap badge is incorrect, that is the insignia of the 'Regimental Association' and not the Regiment, it really needs swapping back.

Putting the Template:Duke_of_Wellingtons_Regiment_history into [Template:The Duke of Wellington's Regiment]] is a good idea it cleans the page up, but it looks lopside, can it be centralised within the second template. I prefer the item to be wikified, but only reverted User:hammersfan edits that had altered they full page layout. If I'm wrong I apologise. I'm new to wikipedia so need helping.

Phone calls were made to myself and others, by people who we have encouraged to get onto and look at the site in preference to the MOD site, they assumed we had made a mess of it and were calling us to redo it.

When I uploaded the images for the VC Recipients it was intended for them to be on the page to be viewed by people who saw the links put there previously, at that time there was no page showing them so I will now go and put the images on the user pages where they do not exist. Richard Harvey 15:43, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I was getting a little concerned about your "ownership" of the article: any wikipedia article is liable to be edited by other users, so whatever is there today may not to be there tomorrow. This can lead to chaos, although blatant vandalism is usually corrected very quickly. However, on the positive side, other users often correct spelling, grammar, layout, etc, and the result is often surprisingly good. If someone thinks the page is a mess, the wiki answer is to "fix it yourself".

Re the Colours. Previously, the four images were dotted around the screen with little apparent rhyme or reason. If you want them in a horizontal line, it could be done thus:

Image:DWR Honorary Queen's Colour.JPG DWR Honorary Queen's Colour

Image:DWR Regulation Queen's Colour.JPG DWR Regulation Queen's Colour

Image:DWR Regulation Regimental Colour.JPG DWR Regulation Regimental Colour

Image:DWR Honorary Regimental Colour.JPG DWR Honorary Regimental Colour

but your combined image is probably a better solution (if a little wide!).

Sorry if I made an error with the badge - I presumed that Image:DWR Combined Badge small.jpg was the badge of the Regiment, and Image:DWR Cap Badge small.jpg was the cap badge. If the first relates to the 'Regimental Association' only then the article probably ought to say so.

I agree: the pages for the VC recipients would be a better place for the images.

I trust you think the balance of my edits were an improvement. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:06, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Funnily enough the way you put the colours above is the way I had put them, before somebody moved them. But I do prefer the simple replacement image I've done. I have now reduced that to 600px so it should be a bit narrower (it is an 800pixel Image). Your editing of the text is far better than my friends is, which will upset him. Thank you. The combined badge is used around barracks on signs and in media items, but is not worn on clothing other than sports or members privately bought t-shirts, etc. The brigade recognition badge is the same colour as the Regiments stable belt ie red, grey, red in horizontal bands.

I have put the images for the VC recipients in their user pages, I've never liked calling them VC winners as It's not exactly a competition to get them, but an award for an exceptional act above the norm. Should the links to the old external VC site now be removed from the end of each persons name. Also I noticed in some recipients User pages some external links which don't appear to go anywhere. Richard Harvey 00:42, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Talk page comments 2 BA 3 FAC 4 6th Batallion during World War II 5 The Hook 6 Holland

[edit] Talk page comments

I don't follow the logic of blanking the talk page just due to age of the comments. Common practice seems to be to leave them in place, and archive when the pages gets over-large. Alai 06:07, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] BA

I have removed the BA, as wiki elsewhere doesn't add it for the literally 1000s of entries where people are entitled to such accademic post noms. The DofW surely has enough proper honours not to worry about it. It was anyway incorrectly placed (as it is on the Army website *strangely*) BA follows the DL rather then preceeding it [[1]]

I have uploaded a scanned image of the Winter 2005 Regimental Magazine Page showing information including the post nominals of the 8th Duke of Wellington. See [2]. These are shown with the BA before the DL, which is the way the 8th DoW wishes it to be shown. Therefore, surely, it should be left that way. Unless of course you wish to write to him at Apsley House to query it yourself. Richard Harvey 00:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Richard as I indicated the order being used is wrong - please follow my previous link - check with the crown office or any other official source (which the regimental link most certainly isn't) for defining post nominal order. Even Wiki's entry manages to get the order right. That the duke can't get his own post nominals correct is his fault - and the armies I presume in following it blindly without checking theres - but that's no argument for any resource that wishes to be credible to follow anything but the actual rules. To put the question in your own terms - who sets the rules for the order for post nominals - It isn't the recipient. I understand your regimental pride but that is not an argument to knowingly repeat an error simply because a rightly respected individual has.

If you must put BA back - I'm trying to clarify if using it at all is against the manual of style put it back in the correct places as defined by the rules - this is not a regimental resource and should not repeat their doubtless entirely well meaning mistakes.Alci12 14:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

This article is almost good enough, in terms of content, to be a featured article - see WP:WIAFA for the criteria. Where is really falls down, at the moment, is references and citations. Would it be possible to add some more?

It may help to have a peer review first. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 6th Batallion during World War II

I have added details about the 6th Batallion and it's poor performance during the 2nd World War, more specifically, during the battle of Normandy. I will probrably add the full report by the CO of 6 Bn, DWR, when I find "Overlord" by Max Hastings. Tommy!!! 10:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Hook

The Hook was a geographical feature, and accordingly we refer to it with a capitalised T in 'The'. but not as 'the Hook'. Nitpicking perhaps, but its always better to have these things correct. The sub-heading 'Battle of The Hook' was change to reflect its geographical identity. Brian.Burnell 12:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Holland

The person who changed the words "southern Holland" to the southern Netherlands should revert the change without further ado. In English idiom, (and this was an English version of Wiki when I last checked) the term Holland is frequently used to refer to "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" to give that place its full legal title. Here in Wiki we are not producing a legal tome, but a readable reference source, and full legal descriptions are used when necessary, but readability and a good narrative flow are also important. My brother fought with the British Army to liberate the people of France, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg and Germany. He would not (then or now) ever describe his part in this great enterprise as liberating the French Republic, The Kingdom of Belgium, The Kingdom of the Netherlands, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and the Third Reich. He used the short form in common use then and now, and saved what breath he could for fighting and surviving. Brian.Burnell 16:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Southampton, England.

The person who corrected this error musn't anything. There is no Roosendaal in southern Holland, period. There is one in the south of the Netherlands (nobody says you should use "The Kingdom of The Netherlands"). Getting the facts right is important. Fnorp 18:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well ....... if getting the facts right is important ... then the language purists should aspire to that also. FACTUALLY SPEAKING .... the correct term is 'The Kingdom of the Netherlands'. But of course most sensible people will agree that some abbreviation is desirable. Pehaps I should also point out that when visiting the supermarket today I purchased some Gouda cheese. It was labelled, as all food products are labelled with its country of origin to comply with EU laws. In this case the label said 'Produced in Holland'. So it seems that the mighty European Commission in Brussels is on this side of the fence in authorizing the term 'Holland'. THe language purists must be feeling a little isolated. Brian.Burnell 03:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)