Talk:Dunblane massacre

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To be merged - from Dunblane (Scotland) Massacre The Dunblane Massacre was a spree killing that occurred on Wednesday, the 13th of March 1996 in a primary school in the town of Dunblane, Scotland (near Stirling). Thomas Hamilton, a local 43-year-old man, entered the school not long after the school day began, with four guns, and is alleged to have begun firing his weapons in the playground. He then forced his way past two of the 25 staff as he walked along a passageway, past the dining room, and into the gym, where 45-year-old Gwen Mayor was teaching a class of five- and six-year old children.

In three minutes he shot dead 16 small children and Mrs. Mayor, killing or injuring all but one of a class of 29 children. Fifteen children and Mrs Mayor died at the scene; another child died in hospital. Three of the children who survived the initial shooting were put on the critical list when taken to hospital. Only one child in the gym escaped unhurt. Hamilton then turned his guns on himself.

Information is from the Guardian, Thursday 14th March 1996.

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I added the name of the teacher who died, but I wasn't able to find name names of any of the children. I can't deny that I have qualms about listing their names, but we do a similar thing for the victims of the 9/11 attack and those pages are, I think, both moving and appropriate. Note that those pages don't redact the names of the children envolved. I believe I recall the names and photographs of the deceased children appearing in TV and print media immediately after the massacre, so they should be in a media archive somewhere. It's noteworthy also that this Wikipedia page is the second hit for "dunblane massacre" on google (the first being far from memorial in nature). -- Finlay McWalter 00:52, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think this has the list. Evercat 00:56, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I added the names of the deceased (from the Cullen report) but not those injured (which is apparently what we do for 9/11). -- Finlay McWalter 01:15, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Dunblane Massacre two links 2 Andrew Murray 3 Newspaper Online Talkboard Libel 4 Cullen Inquiry 5 Picture 6 Political Impact 7 Another Conspiracy Theory 8 Thinking logically 9 Evidence on my theory 10 Theory Busted 11 List of deceased and injured in the Dunblane massacre.

[edit] Dunblane Massacre two links

I added the two direct links from "Dublane Massacre" to the Report and the Transcript of the 1996 Cullen Inquiry into the massacre. Norman Richard Bassett

The former of these additions duplicated exactly a preexisting link. I removed the duplicate and clarified the description of the remaining link. The latter is a most valuable addition - thanks. -- Finlay McWalter 00:11, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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I think the first two paragraphs need to be reworked. The second paragraph feels almost like a different version of the first paragraph, rather than coninuing the article. It does add extra information, but it also repeats some things we've already been told. They also contradict each other on one point - how old were the children 4-5 or 5-6?

Was this a spree killing, or a mass murder? Having read the definitions on wikipedia, I'm not sure myself.

Why is the teacher called "Gwen Hodson or Mayor"? If Hodson is her unmarried name it could be left out, or included as (nee Hodson) I would have thought.

Is there a site with the revised lyrics of Knockin On Heaven's Door that we could link to? Jan 10th 04, fabiform.

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[edit] Andrew Murray

I can't believe Andrew Murray was actually in this, I knew he was from Dunblane, but I didn't know that. I added some more about him since his profile has recently raised, feel free to edit it if you feel it isn't appropriate.

Well, he wasn't in the class in question, but apparently was in another classroom in the (rather small) school building. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He hid in the headteacher's office, which, from experience, is about fifty meters from the gym where it took place. No classrooms are near the headteacher's office. --RevenDS 17:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Andy Murray Paragraph is inaccurate. The Cullen enquiry mentions the headmaster's office and makes no reports of any students hiding there. Andy Murray was in Primary 3 at the time and would have been nowhere near the Headmaster's office at the time of the incident. The report only mentions one student who was not in the Primary 1 class who was on an errrand, this person was in Primar 7. It does not report said student going to Headmaster's office. The paragraph also glamourises the incident by connecting celebrities to it, which I think we will all agree is not acceptable. Please do not reinsert Andy Murray Paragraph.

[edit] Newspaper Online Talkboard Libel

I've added a reference to George Robertson's action against the Sunday Herald. Anecdota

[edit] Cullen Inquiry

Changed info to conform with actual Cullen Report. Alex Swanson 10:25, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Problem: The link to "Cullen Inquiry" goes to a disambig page regarding three things for which Lord Cullen has done a report. The disambiguation for this particular Cullen Inquiry links back to this very page. So if the "Cullen Inquiry" link were disambiguated, then it would be a circular link. I'm not really sure how to handle this.

Probably "Cullen Inquiry" in the text should not be a link, and then in the "Related" section, there should be a link to "Other Cullen Inquiries"?

In any case, I don't know what to do so I'm leaving it. --Jaysweet 19:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Could you possibly change the main image of this section? I am a relative of one of the children killed and to even say the killers name makes you angry, let alone look at his face. Please can it be removed and replaced by a picture of the Dunblane Cathedral/Snowdrops etc?

Its a very horrific event to read about and must be extremely painful to relive the events through wikipedia pages. As with all horrific events, the terrible actions of others become part of documented history and the lives and deaths of the innocent are forever relived on its pages. Unfortunately, the families of the innocent are burdened with reliving those tragic moments as history is documented. The images on these pages are not used to exploit the innocent or guilt, only to document that history. If we did not document violence acts in history with text and images, we would never know the horrors we face in life. Just as we saw the faces of other evil beings, such as Hitler and ted bundy, we will see the faces of other future evil beings as history continues to be generated by our existence and our existence continues to be documented on wikipedia pages. Again, its unfortunate that you must relive the event on these pages but history does not spare the innocent but the innocent are held close to our hearts as we relive the events. Rest assured, when seeing the images we protect the innocent and hold them tight and we scowl and grit our teeth at the hateful. I'm going to revert the changes as they are part of history and haven't been discussed completely on the talk pages. I will continue to hold your family members close to my heart when reading the article and I will also hold anger, and unfortunately hate as I look at the image of the person who stole a valuable part of your life.I already forgot 03:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Man, that must be rough. But I do think the picture is appropriate to the article, unfortunately. It might make sense to add a picture of the Dunblane Cathedral, if you can find one that meets copyright restrictions... --Jaysweet 15:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry for your tragic loss. The picture may be appropiate, however perhaps it could be further down the page, this may be a acceptable compromise to both points of view? LEave your thoughts.

Moved the hamilton photo and placed an image of scotland. Added the Andy section back with a more NPOV flavor, notes, references and other minor edits.I already forgot 09:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The Andy Murray paragraph is a lot more accurate and does not glamourise the incident anymore, the map of Scotland is also a more relevant main image.

I just need to mention, I think this was a great compromise. The map of Scotland is actually quite helpful, and I think this change really improved the article, without censoring relevant information (i.e. the killer's photograph). --Jaysweet 20:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Being the original person that posted this request, I'd like to thank you for not have him as the main image. I understand that his image should be used for more information, i just didnt like that it was the main one. Thank you to whom every went to the bother of changing it. Thank you 13/3/96 ~ always remember~

[edit] Political Impact

I'd reordered this section, as the previous version seemed to be chronologically out of sequence in order to make a political point, i.e. "blaming" Labour for "a UK-wide ban on handguns" and the conceding that most of it had been done by the previous Conservative government already. I've also removed the comment about the level of gun crime, as it was too simplistic and also misleading. Nick Cooper 23:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another Conspiracy Theory

Is it possible that Tony Blair ordered this? Most Brits consider him a war criminal due to his involvement in Iraq.

You think Leaders of the Opposition can do that sort of thing with impunity, or are you just making a very poor-taste "joke"? Nick Cooper 12:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thinking logically

If you think logically, Blair may have ordered it in an attempt to discredit John Major who was defeated in the 1997 election. I am not making any sick jokes, it is just a logical thought.

No, it's wild speculation bordering on fantasy. How would "ordering" the death of a classroom full of kids have "discredited" John Major? It's not as if Michael Ryan/Hungerford brought down the incumbant government. Nick Cooper 00:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence on my theory

As per article on Thomas Hamilton:

"Thomas Hamilton (allegedly) shot himself four times with his revolver, once in his stomach, once in his chest, once in the side of his head, and once through his mouth."

It would be very close to impossible for a human being to shoot his/herself four times before dying, as the shot to the stomach would incapaticate and eventually kill him via internal bleeding, making it impossible to fire the other three shots that are claimed to have been fired. Also suicides very rarely fire more than once - do you remember the contoroversy re: George Reeves's murder (offically classed as a suicide)????

Unattributed speculation. Try and come up with reputable sources that claim Hamilton died in this manner. Nick Cooper 00:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Theory Busted

This theory is withdrawn and I hereby apologize for wasting time. I did not mean to offend anyone.

[edit] List of deceased and injured in the Dunblane massacre.

In addition to notifying the author who reverted my removal of the list, here's some reading for the others who'd want to restore itit. WP:NOT#MEMORIAL --Nyp 04:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that you actually read the page you yourself cite more carefully. It states:

"While there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Wikipedia articles are not simply:... Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered."

This is clearly referring to an article that is only a memorial and nothing else. The two lists of victims are entirely valid in the context of the page about the event as a whole, and have been in place for 3½ years without anyone reaching the same "understanding" of WP:NOT#MEMORIAL as yourself. I am therefore putting the list back in. 11:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

So tell me what makes them "valid in the context of the page about the event as a whole". It's just a list of uninteresting names without related articles or descriptions. You assume the list of /injured/ to be encyclopedic content? Give me a break. --Nyp 13:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, forgive me if I point out that British editors are in a better position to judge what is valid in an article about a British subject than those who aren't. You disinterest is your own affair that you should keep to yourself and not assume it is shared by anyone else. Nick Cooper 13:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Any /objective/ argument? That you are British in fact makes you less suitable to the role of judging the relevance of a list of British people. --Nyp 05:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's balanced by me being English, rather than Scottish. I am curious, though, as to why you have decided to exercise your twisted reading of WP:NOT#MEMORIAL here, rather than at, say, Columbine High School massacre, Osaka school massacre, Red Lake High School massacre, Casualties of the Beslan school hostage crisis, Amish school shooting, etc. Clearly you're going to be very busy if you have the courage of your own convictions. Nick Cooper 12:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't read those articles yet, as my user page states I am not very active on enWiki. If we could compromise, I'd suggest to at least remove the list of injured and put the list of casualties in a box such as in the Columbine article, where it doesn't break the whole article in two parts. I may have misinterpreted the guidelines, but Casualties of the Beslan school hostage crisis still does look like a violation of it. Regardless, my above suggestion stays, not for the sake of the argument but of the article. --Nyp 14:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)