Talk:Early history of Ireland
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[edit] Relying on old theories
Won't go into the O'Rahilly discussion, which is certainly a valid one, but P-Celtic & Q-Celtic? This view of Celtic liguistics has been almost utterly supplanted at this point! See Insular Celtic.
[edit] Too Much O'Rahilly Influence?
I think there is something of the same problem with this article as there is with Ivernic language in that there is far too much reliance placed on the theorys - and that is all they are - of T.F. O'Rahilly. Besides, I'm sure you are all aware by now that over 95% of Irish people have little or no Celtic ancestry. Fergananim
I've rewritten a paragraph and changed a few heading levels to make it clear where these theories come from and that they're not universally accepted. I'm reading O'Rahilly at the moment and, while he seems to have thought things through, he doesn't show his working, as it were. Characters are dismissed as ancestor deities or relexes of "the hero" very casually. It seems to me at least as likely that Cormac mac Airt, for example, was a fondly remembered historical king that legends have gathered around as a god. But his theories are influential and widely disseminated, so I think it would be more useful to include them and make it clear where they come from than to delete them. --Nicknack009 19:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not saying you should delete them, merely pointing out that they are simply theorys, and ones that are not now widely accecpted. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of time for O Rahilly, but as I said on another talk page, he presents his theorys as if they were authoritative fact. They're not. Fergananim
I believe the theories should have their own article and be summarised on this one. As it stands, they make up almost half the article. Also, it's not clear whether or not the "Gaelic conquest" section is part of O'Rahilly's theory or accepted fact.
Lapsed Pacifist 30 June 2005 05:34 (UTC)
If no-one objects, I'll summarise the theories in the article and then move them to a new page.
Lapsed Pacifist 09:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Further Points
I do accecpt that peoples such as the Cruithne, Fir Bolg/Builg/Érainn did come to Ireland but I would still be slow to accecpt the term invasion. Think of them more like the Vikings and Normans who did arrive and conquor areas of Ireland but who within a number of generations became utterly assimiliated into Irish society.
Nor do I accecpt that the Gaels were one of these peoples, as the word is derived from the Welsh language which simply means raiders and denoted people who came from Ireland, whatever their ethnic origins within Ireland. A good example would be the way we still think of those who came to Ireland in 1169 and after as English (though they were mainly of Flemish, Welsh, Norman and Anglo-Saxon origins) simply because they came from England. Fergananim, 12th July 2005.
[edit] I have a question.
What was Ireland like in the year 10 A.D.? --68.37.116.234 21:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
There is little solid historical information about Ireland at that time other than the fact that it was Iron Age and Celtic. According to mythology, that would have been around the time of Cuchulainn, Conchobar, and the Tain. Celsiana 16:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Celtic arrival
Celsiana, I reverted your last edit because it's introducing material that, without references, is merely POV:
"It has traditionally been thought it was Celtic invaders that brought Celtic language into Ireland, but recent genetic and archeological studies have lead to the formation of the newer, more controversial theory that the adoption of Celtic culture and language was a far more gradual transformation, brought on by cultural exchange with Celtic groups in mainland Europe. Many linguists would, however, argue that usually a culture would only abandon it's native language in favor of another under the pressure of political dominiation."
Controversial according to whom? Which linguists? It sounds good, but you need to cite sources to avoid running afoul of WP:WEASEL. Dppowell 16:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
I've added a cleanup tag to the article. Much of it needs to be looked over, but I was specifically referring to the quotes from the book with the page numbers; they need to be done according to the MoS, and probably trimmed down so they don't overwhelm the article.--Cúchullain t/c 01:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
