Talk:Education in England

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I've moved this page to Education in England as I realised a lot of the details on there are not true of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I don't know about the pre-1988 stuff, but since 1988 these countries have been moving further and further away from the English system. For example, Wales no longer have compulsory testing at KS1 and do not publish League Tables. Scotland does not have tuition fees for universities etc. Angela 17:17, Oct 12, 2003 (UTC)

It would be good to have a section on Church of England and other faith schools in the UK. I'm not too familiar with that aspect of the education system (especially how such schools are funded etc.). Anyone else want to have a go? Adambisset 22:42, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Maximum starting age for Primary? 2 {{education}} template 3 Original research 4 School Structures 5 Percentage of population who have enrolled in A levels and University 6 Is 'Big Business' relevant? 7 Incorrect link 8 New Diagram 9 Labels within Secondary schools

[edit] Maximum starting age for Primary?

The article says that education was made "compulsory up to age 14" but not when it is supposed to start. I think the article would be improved by adding this. I have been unable to obtain any information from any other source and need to know it for my own child! ....I have now had this confirmed - a child must start school no later than the term during which his fifth birthday occurs.DavidFarmbrough

[edit] {{education}} template

I'm not sure what the purpose of this template as it stands. I will remove it shortly unless serious objections are raised Frelke 21:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No objection I've removed it. --Pfafrich 21:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

The User who keeps trying to change the opening sentence has started identical Talk strands at two other articles, but not here for some reason. If you wish to respond, I have replied here:

• Talk:Education in Scotland#Suggested minor change to Intro

--Mais oui! 08:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

simple answer - I did not have time!leaky_caldron 08:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

further. I have no idea what you mean by "original research". The fact that material has been around for years - badly presented IMO - does not make it cannon. My improvements are intended to provide context in the overall scheme of education in the UK. I have hardly altered a word of following description and where I have it is simply to correct errors or improve readability

[edit] School Structures

I've noticed that on the Education in UK page there is a small chart showing the main structures of education in England. However, things are actually more complex. I have adapted the graphic, and uploaded it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:School_Stuctures.png but thought it better to leave it open for discussion whether the graphic is clearer than, or a useful addition to, the opening information about structures on this. Any advice? Tafkam 12:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Chart looks good to me, although I'm not sure what the different bands represent. Is the term Lower school actually common in the UK? --Salix alba (talk) 13:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Lower school is still used in areas where they have 9-13 Middle Schools - for example, the entire county of Bedfordshire. Not sure I feel I have enough authority to just drop the image in (nor, necessarily the right capability). Does anyone else feel happy with it and want to do that? Tafkam 17:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've only just come across this new chart you've made, so sorry for the long delay. The chart is much better than the one at present, but one or two things are worrying me. For example, with the top two rows, it looks like you either have primary school, followed by secondary schools and then a sixth form college, or else you have an infant, then junior, then a comined secodnary-sixth form. The char appears to show you cannot go to infant, juniro, secondary and then separate sixth form, or from a primary to a combined secondary-sixth form, yet these are possible. There are potential similar problems in the next section down too. I'd say include the chart for now until something better can be worked out...it is after all better than what is currently in there as it's more inclusive of the differnet school types while still being very easy to look at. Good work :-) Evil Eye 18:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I;ve just again looked at the chart on the UK Edu page and sen that it uses small arrows on the chart to indicate possible movement between different strands...would it be possible to inlcude those on this chart in some places where there could be ambiguity over possible movement betweens chool types? Evil Eye 18:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Have made the suggested amendments Tafkam 19:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Percentage of population who have enrolled in A levels and University

I was trying to find stats on what percentage of the UK have been to university or have done A levels. If anyone knows this could you add it to this article? This info would be seperate for percentage of people starting university out of all eligible young people, and percentage of UK adult population who have been to University. Thanks! 194.83.140.37 12:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is 'Big Business' relevant?

This looks to me like a pseudo-advertisement for a Yahoo Group at best. I'm not convinced that the tone matches the remainder of the article, or that it adds anything useful for the reader. Reluctant to delete unilatreally though. Any thoughts? Tafkam 15:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree - the Big Business is not really relevant to Education in the UK - could it be moved to a seperate article rather then completely deleting? --Rossa 12:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Has been removed - Thank you Chrism. Not worth keeping Tafkam 17:44, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect link

Your link to my website is incorrect.

Since I reorganised my site, the correct URL for my Brief History of Education in England is now:

http://www.dg.dial.pipex.com/history/index.shtml

My apologies for any inconvenience.

Derek Gillard

Derek60 15:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Updated Tafkam 21:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Diagram

Is the image added by Tafkam really representative of the english education system. I have never seen of some of the structures put out in it. Can anyone back me up/ shoot me down. MHDIN Englishnerd 21:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Personally I gave up trying to do something similar alst year as I felt it just wouldn't work. Whilst I don't doubt the accuracy of the diagram, I don't think its useful. Frelke 21:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• I can assure you they all exist. Obviously the 3-tier ones are far less common, but they exist all the same. Whether the diagram adds anything; not really for me to decide. Suffice to say, I won't revert if others remove it because it is 'getting in the way'. (Note that the diagram itself was discussed further up the page) Tafkam 21:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Labels within Secondary schools

I realise this risks appearing as directed attack at Englishnerd, which it is not but my wide-ranging experience of secondary education suggests that the labels given for the different stages of secondary education (a) are rare in state schools [whilst more common in independent schools], and (b) are applied differently in those few schools where they are used such as to make that particular paragraph unhelpful. For example, a reader in the US could be led to believe that 'middle school' commonly refers to Key Stage 4, which it does not. Tafkam 21:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This looks like a case where compromise will be easy: rather than removing the information wholesale, can we not simply emphasise that it applies to some schools, and make it clear which system is the most common? – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 22:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I might agree, but I am not familiar with any school that labels different Key Stages in this way outside of the independent sector. It would probably be better listed in the independent schools pages.Tafkam 22:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

<add>I notice that Englishnerd's own school (a former public school) uses this system, but I would suggest that that is more to do with its public-school past than common usage in the state sector.Tafkam 22:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, I have heard of some others which use this system, but if you don't think it to be a common thing, I'm fine for you to revert it. The problem is that the entire article to contradictory, as it includes the practices of so many schools, it is problematic as there is not one set-out way which things run in! S'ok Tafkam, I assume good faith, I know It wasn't a personal attack! Englishnerd 14:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, that first section of the article does try to cram in rather a lot about different types of education. Perhaps it should be slimmed down, and then a separate section (either within this artcle, or as a separate article, I'm not sure which) should discuss the variations on the theme?Tafkam 20:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You are completely correct, but I can't work out any sensible way of cutting it down. It's such a complex system that it can't be summed up in a short paragraph or two! Oh, why do us Brits have to be so complicated?! Englishnerd 20:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Have tried to simplify on my userpage - any better? Tafkam 20:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Definitely, go ahead, with that simplification. Suposedly with the new diagram; That would make the whole thing a lot clearer. Englishnerd 22:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Done Tafkam 19:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)