Talk:Egyptian identification card controversy

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got a lot of editing going on. Any discussion? Seems like work is progressing nicely!--Smkolins 21:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SOP in countries?

One question I have is the Islamic/Christian/Judaism only identifications happening in other countries?

Another is any reactions from Hindu/Buddhist/Sikh communities?

How about non-mainstream Christian communities - are they still labeled Christians? LDS for example? More research....--Smkolins 21:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Smkolins,

This issue is specifically in Egypt in regards to the identification cards issued by the government which are required for every basic right, including healthcare and right to work. The problem also exists in Iran and other places, but this article is specifically about this landmark court case of 16 December, which is so antithetical to basic human rights.

While this court case discriminates against the largest non-recognized minority community in Egypt (see Religion in Egypt for more demographics), the Bahá'ís, this court ruling also discriminates against anyone in Egypt who are not Christians, Jews or Muslims. However, this court case is not about recognition of any religion, but the right to exist in a society. Bahá'ís in this instance have no problem putting a blank, or a dash on their ID cards in the religion field, but they do not feel that it is right to commit perjury just to exist within the country.

Non-mainstream christians still choose to self-identify as Christians so this is not an issue.

I agree this issue still needs research, I hope you can help.

Yours sincerely,

Matarael 09:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

SOP in other countries may still be important. I gather the rules in Iran are similar(though in a Shi'a context). Additionally I understand a new court case is working through the system based on children born to a Baha'i couple when in another arab/muslim country that did allow a Baha'i entry on their birth certificates - which is now denied on Egyptian paperwork....--Smkolins 23:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I see some semblance of these issues at Persecution of Hindus#During Islamic rule in the Indian sub-continent, Persecution of Hindus#Forced Conversions, and Persecution of Hindus#Saudi Arabia, as well as Persecution of Buddhists#Persecution by Muslims. None of them address Egypt but several speak to Muslim interactions with these religions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smkolins (talk • contribs).

[edit] Wrong lead?

The lead states that:

The ruling leaves Bahá'ís unable to obtain the necessary government documents to have rights in their country [...] they cannot obtain ID cards, birth certificates, death certificates, marriage or divorce certificates, passports; they also cannot be employed, educated, treated in hospitals or vote among other things.[1]

At least one of references, #3, states that:

The court's decision upholds government policy to deny Bahais the right to receive identification cards, birth certificates, education, and even medical care, unless they lie about their religious beliefs [emphasis mine]

which is actually what common sense tells me. Baha'i are not denied any human rights by the ruling or the government of Egypt, except the right to have their religion properly represented in ID cards. A Baha'i adherent can receive any document if they wrongly state their religion (the government doesn't perform any checks of religion, nor I see how they could do it). This is also confirmed by reference #1

The government must find a solution now for the hundreds of citizens who used to be able to obtain official documents recognizing their faith for more than five decades until the government decided recently to change its policy and force them to choose between Islam and Christianity. [emphasis mine]

Now, I understand that to someone, their religion may be so important that they would prefer living without an ID card (and loosing all rights associated with it) to having it wrongly stated in their ID card; but let's call spade a spade and correct the lead. Nikola 09:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I've changed of the lead to indicate the above, but also added that Baha'is as a matter of belief cannot lie about their religion, as opposed to Muslims which can (Taqiyya). From [1]

"What the Egyptian Bahá’ís are not able to do is to lie to their Government by claiming to be members of a religion they are not—both because it is a matter of religious principle to them and because they do not wish to perpetrate a fraud against their Government."

Regards, -- Jeff3000 15:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, an excellent rewrite, I might just touch it a bit. The article on Baha'i doesn't state that they must not lie about their religion, and as it seems quite tolerant I assumed that they may. Nikola 09:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)