Talk:Eight-ball

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Cue sports, a project to improve Wikipedia's coverage of pool, carom billiards and other cue sports. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this talk page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Contents 1 Differences between US and UK and AU 2 Rule Changes 3 picture of the rack 4 Blackball 5 Terminology Section 6 Rule list 7 Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion 8 WikiProject Cue sports 9 Pool redirect 10 Massive edit 11 Pantsing/down trou 12 Number in name

[edit] Differences between US and UK and AU

It states that the pockets on a US table are larger than the UK table. I seem to remember that the ball sizes are different too, including the size difference between the cue ball and the others. In the UK the cue is smaller than the other balls - I want to say it's the other way around for the US, would that be right? Can't quite remember. violet/riga (t) 19:00, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It depends a lot on where you're playing. Most pool halls and bars in the U.S. have a cue ball slightly smaller than the rest so as to permit its return in the case of a scratch without returning the other balls to play. Tables that are not pay-per-play, however, seem to have a cue ball approximately the *same* size as the object balls. If it's any bigger, I can't tell, and I can see the size difference on the pay-per-play cues. —chris.lawson (talk) 00:13, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's not actually accurate. USpool halls, which don't typically have coin-op tables, use regulation-size balls. US bars with older coin-op tables tend to either have an oversized cue ball, or a normal-size but denser one made of ceramic, never a smaller one. Modern bar boxes use regulation size/weight cue balls with an iron core that is acted on by a magnet to separate the cue ball from the other balls in the return mechanism. Anyway, this stuff is all covered in the Glossary now. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

In the UK, playing in pubs/clubs on the small table (generally 7ft X 4ft) the cue ball is slightly smaller for the same reason. So object balls are 2ins and the white 1-7/8ins (scottish8ball.com) [--anon.]

Sounds plausible to me for UK tables, but no major US table manufacturer uses a mechanism with smaller cue balls. Whatever WEPF says about regulation English-style tables should probably be added to the Eight-ball#English-style rules section Blackball (pool) under "Equipment". — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Updated 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC) after article split.

After a foul stroke in the UK, the offending player will miss a turn - known as the "two shots" rule. A common exception to this is "one shot on the black", that is a player who has only the black left to pot does not get this advantage. The "one shot on the black" rule doesn't appear in (EPA) World Rules or BAPTO Rules, anyone care to give a citation? (other than "my mate down the pub says...."). --129.67.127.19 00:32, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A lot of people at Trinity Hall play it as such...it seems to be the kind of thing that's a common rule for social games but not in any of the official rules. 128.232.250.254 23:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC) darn forgot to sign before. So finding a published source for this may be difficult.

It's been moved to the "Other rule variants" section, since it can't be sourced in any major rules. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"If a player has two shots, and pots a ball with the first, he now has one two shot left."

i think this should read

"If a player has two shots, and pots a ball with the first, he now has one shot left."

Mainland Europe seem to have cueballs much larger than the object balls. It's nearly always smaller in the British Isles. In UK pubs, the balls are nearly always (but not strictly) reds & yellows on a green cloth. The 8 ball was always numbered but I've seen plain black balls introduced in recent years. Other colour varients are on the increase to go with the seemingly varying cloth clours ie a red cloth may have blues and yellows. Stripeds & solids are still also found occasionally but the dimensions of the British pub table make it hard to play the extra games ie nine ball, meaning there's no advantage of having them. Home tables traditionally always had stripes & solids. It now varies by manufacturer and whether the table pays tribute to British or American tables in regard to size and pocket dimensions. You can get American style table in a few places here in Liverpool. Both tavern and taunament. I have to say they're much easier to pocket balls on then their British cousins. [Gary Parks]

I must also like to add that I've never heard the terms 'bigs' and 'smalls' to define ball caste in the UK. At least not here in the Liverpool area. Stripes are always stripes. Solids are alternatively called spots but as often as not are still called solids. [Gary Parks]

All of those topics are moot, and are now handled at the Glossary. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Despite what the main article says about "in England and Australia", having played 8 ball in Australia all my life I have never ever seen it played with unnumbered coloured balls. It is always numbered balls. The "bigs" and "smalls" is always used in Australia to decide which balls are yours and which are your opponents. However it never occured to me that this was because of the numbers - "bigs" are those with big white circles with the number in it, and "smalls" are those which small white circles with the number in it.

Gtpdspin 14:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That's only true of the balls manufactured by certain companies; some of their competitors put the stripes' numbers on the colored stripe itself, not in the "big circle"; however I can't see any particular reason not to add that possible derivation in the Glossary - the idea seems to be fairly common. However, this is not a discussion for this talk page any longer, but rather for the one at the Glossary article. Anyway, it doesn't say "England and Australia" here any longer. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"Whether a ball contacts the rail, or the player pots one of his own balls, is irrelevant in deciding a foul. Instead, a legal move is one where the cueball first hits one of the balls in the player's own group, and does not pot the cueball, the black ball or any of the balls in the opponent's group."

This line isn't true? World rules (which are linked in the next paragraph) states:

"On all shots, the player must:-

Cause the Cue Ball's initial contact with a ball to be with a ball "On",

AND THEN

Pot a ball "On" OR Cause the Cue Ball or any Object Ball to contact a cushion." [Cf]

The distinction that needs to be drawn here is between a) Intl. Std. Rules, which are tournament rules based largely on the BCA rules, and familiar in whole or in part to serious, competitive players, on the one hand, and growing in popularity, especially in pool halls and even in pub-based leagues; and on the other hand, b) informal bar/tavern/pub "rules" which vary from country to country, region to region, town to town, even bar to bar. In North America at least (I cannot speak for the .uk or .au) the whole must-hit-a-rail rule is completely unheard of among bar players (other than some league players, whose leagues have adopted this rule from the BCA and other large-scale leagues like APA/CPA, VNEA, etc.) Indeed, the "rules" in bar pool are so inconsistent and so different from "canonical" eight-ball that they should not really be considered the same game at all ("stripes and solids" or "highs and lows" are two alternative names that can and have been applied, as well as "bar pool", "tavern pool", "pub pool" and "bar ball"). At any rate, I think this article should stick to documenting the "real" Intl. Std. Rules, and then in a different section perhaps talk about regional and informal (tavern) variations. That might even be better as its own article, as it could get very, very long in no time at all. I could easily write several pages on the differences between typical bar rules and various leagues in just the last three cities I've lived in! Some of the differences are win-vs.-lose radical. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Upon reading the article I found it very messy. Maybe splitting the article into UK/US pool would make sense. I personally consider them different games purely based on the table/pocket size. But further to that, you probably get enough variations in each game to make a full article out of it. When I have seen rules on the wall in a pub, pool hall or snooker hall, it is usually a copy of old EPA rules or world rules. Occasionally it is another set, but the article should surely be based on the actual rules, with ideas such as 2 shots carry and 1 shot on the black (neither of which come up in either set of rules posted by the EPA) in a section marked variations. [Cf]

I also believe that there should be seperate entries for US 8-ball and UK 8-ball as the games are totally different! I think its important that each version of the game warrants its own page.

Personally, I don't like UK 8-ball (and I'm English!) I refer to it as "pretend" pool or "baby" pool. Who invented UK 8-ball and why? To me its just something that won't take up too much space in a pub. The most irritating thing I find here in the UK is that many people play UK 8-ball rules when playing on American tables with "Spots and Stripes" (or "bands and solids" if you prefer) set of balls. Most don't know how to play US 8-ball in England (the ball in hand rule goes right over their heads for instance) or even if they do, I've heard the following excuse time and time again: "Well, we are English and we are playing in England, so we're playing English rules". I suppose as long as both parties agree prior to a rack, you can play/make up any rules you want though.(AMD)

Right. Anyway, all of the above topics up to the part about adding English-style standard (sourced) table dimensions are now moot; the article has already addressed them all. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Some of it has been moved to Blackball (pool). — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rule Changes

Check [1] for the new 2006 rules and their changes. They will be in effect until 2008. 70.111.251.203 03:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there anything specific in them that needs to be addressed here? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] picture of the rack

by my working, the 13 and the 4 should be changed in the rack. That is, excluding the front ball, the eight ball and the middle back row ball, the balls should go big-small-big-small-big-etc (or spotted-solid-spotted-solid etc). --Midnighttonight 04:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen a rack set up as you describe. AFAIK, the setup in the article is correct. 129.67.126.51 17:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually both forms of racking are correct. It can be the way shown or with the 13 and 4 balls switched, which forms a big check of balls and a little check of balls. The "big-check, little-check" version is the one in Blackball (see the bottom of the article). The one shown in the picture is from the EPA rule set I think, since they allow for both. In BCA rules, all that is required is 8-ball in the middle and the left corner and right corner balls to be one solid, one striped. 71.250.9.119 13:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the only rule is that the 8 should be where it is (in the center) and the back left and back right must be opposite (ie. one big/striped one small/solid) [--anon.]

The article text just needs to be updated with more detail on the racking specifics in the two major rulespheres. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blackball

Is there any more information on Blackball? I know it is relatively new, but how many people are adopting it and such? 71.250.9.119 13:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

It is now covered in a little more detail, where it does not disagree with English-style WEPF rules it is based on. Any further development should probably see the entire "English-style rules" section become a new Blackball article; it's very clear that American- and English-style (a.k.a. blackball) "eight-ball" rules are really two radically different games, albeit the latter derived mostly from the former, with snooker and English billiards influences.

Blackball (pool) now exists. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology Section

Is the Terminology section necessary? There is a whole article with just Pool/Billiard terms already. Either add to the list and mark a reference or link from that article to this one. 71.250.9.119 13:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I added the regional term "English" as in "Use your English on that shot!"

(Pygmypony 18:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

The Terminology article should be merged into this article.

(Pygmypony 18:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC))

Other way around by long consensus. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rule list

I've read this article a few times but I can't see an easy to follow rule list with penalties, I know there are lots of different sets of rules and penalties but it would be nice to see one version (a pub rule set at least...) eg. If the other players ball is sunk when taking your shot, an extra shot is given to the other player. (Bouncingmolar 07:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC))

Fixed. Again, as to English-style/blackball rules, that really eventually needs to be its own (and better developed) Blackball article. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please review: Consensus and consistency needed on spelling to prevent ambiguity & confusion

Especially for nine-ball but also for eight-ball, one-pocket, and even snooker, etc., I firmly think we need to come to, and as editors enforce in article texts, a consensus on spelling conventions and implement it consistently throughout all of the cue sports Wikepedia articles. I advocate (and herein attempt to justify) a system of standardized spellings, based on 1) general grammar rules; 2) basic logic; and 3) disambiguation.

This is a draft submission to the active editor community of billiards-related articles on Wikipedia. It is intended to ultimately end up being something like "[[Wikipedia:[something:]Billiards/Spelling guidelines]]", or part of an official Wikipedia cue sports article-shepherding Project, likely it's first documentation output.

Anyway, please help me think this through. The point is not for me to become world famous™ for having finally codified billiards terms and united the entire English-speaking world in using them (hurrah). I simply want the articles here on pool and related games to be very consistent in application of some new consensus Wikipedia editing standards about spelling/phrasing of easily confusable billards terms that may be ambiguous to many readers in the absence of that standard.

Compare:

1. "While 9-ball is a 9-ball game, the 9-ball is the real target; pocket it in a 9-ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Huh?)
2. "While nine-ball is a nine ball game, the 9 ball is the real target; pocket it in a nine ball run if you have to, but earlier is better." (Oh, right!)

That's the super-simple "use case" I make for this proposed nomenclature. If you think that the differentiation didn't cut it please TELL ME, and say how you would improve it.

So, here's the article draft so far (please do not edit it directly! Post on its Discussion page instead; thanks.): User:SMcCandlish/Pool_terms

(PS: This intro text is repeated at the top of it.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 05:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This is now "live", at WP:CUESPELL. Marking this topic resolved here, since WP:CUESPELL has its own talk page.

[edit] WikiProject Cue sports

Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cue sports [It is now live at Wikipedia:WikiProject Cue sports! 23:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)]. Any comments, or better yet interested editors to participate? — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 01:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This is now "live", at WP:CUE. Marking this topic resolved here, since WP:CUE has its own talk page.

[edit] Pool redirect

Pool (game) redirects here, but I always thought that eight-ball was just one version of pool. Shouldn't that redirect lead to Pocket billiards instead?--Azer Red Si? 22:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massive edit

I've done a major rewrite, to take care of a lot of non-encyclopedically written additions, and to vastly clarify the difference between American-style eight-ball, and UK-style blackball (which should probably really be forked into its own article). Loads of clarification, and large-scale wikillinking of Glossary terms, new sources, removal of redundancies, addition of more colloquial rules variations in the section for that, you name it. It would be helpful if someone more familiar with Commonwealth English were to review the stuff about blackball/UK eight-ball and the cited rules sources I've tried to summarize, and the associated major entries in the Glossary (especially at "two shots" and related nearby entries.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 12:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Much of this material has moved to Blackball (pool). — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 19:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pantsing/down trou

I think the New Zealand entry is wrong, and that the conditions for down trou are the same in NZ as they are in Australia. I don't think anyone would be called upon to down-trou if they'd run every ball but the 8 before their opponent made a shot, then the opponent ran all his/her balls and the 8. Regardless, we need sources for both of these. I believe the film Stickmen can be used as one of them. I'll have to watch it again and observe the specifics of the pantsing incident. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 23:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number in name

I think some reference should be made to the fact that unlike Three-ball and Nine-ball, (which are actually played with 3 and 9 balls respectively), Eight-ball refers to the game-play significance of the 8-ball, not the number of balls in play. (It's often confusing to new players that "Eight-ball" actually uses more balls than "Nine-ball", despite the names.) Lurlock 17:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It's even a little more complicated than that. Nine-ball and seven-ball are named for both the number of balls and the money ball, while eight-ball is named only for the money ball, meanwhile three-ball and fifteen-ball are named only for the number of balls. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 00:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)