Talk:Erich Raeder

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Why was Karl Dönitz taken out as successor of Erich Raeder? Why would Erich Raeder be the last Großadmiral. As I see it, Karl Dönitz took that office in 1943. GeneralPatton? --BigBen212 06:11, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• You are right, the bit about Raeder being the last Großadmiral was here before I started improving the article and keeping it was an oversight on my part. --GeneralPatton 03:01, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
• Ok, thanks. I didn't want to change it without making sure first.--BigBen212 21:57, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Navy titles 2 Raeder's Grand Strategy for Victory 3 Resignation/demotion 4 Raeder or Not?!

[edit] Navy titles

The Reichsmarine link is being redirected to "German Navy", but the German Navy it is taking about is the present day German Navy of the Federal Republic of Germany, the Deuthsche Marine (1990-present), not the Weimar Republic's navy. The Vorläufige Reichsmarine was a distinct phase of the German Naval history (1919-1935) as the Imperial Navy, the Kaiserliche Marine (1871-1918) and the Navy of the Third Reich, the Kriegsmarine (1935-1945). Having Reichsmaine in red type indicates that an article needs to be written about it. Someone needs to write about the Vorläufige Reichsmarine in its own right (perhaps me). Redirecting the link to the present day German Navy is misleading. Hunter2005 06:48, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Raeder's Grand Strategy for Victory

I removed a considerable segment that dealt with a "critical" view of this strategy. A full-fledged overview of his plan would sure be great (including verifiable criticism), but that might be more suitable in a new article. As it stands, I feel the criticism isn't neutral and might even constitute original research. If it is to be reverted, it should be rewritten with less of a slant. Additionally, there needs to be more background information concerning this military plan, as it feels a bit "thrown out" in the article. It looks like there's a good bit of information on the German Wikipedia that could be incorporated, but I don't feel comfortable enough doing this. By the way, is this the guy whose sentencing was opposed by several U.S. military officials? Nezbie 17:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the segment dealing with a criticism of this strategy. None of it is original work -- many of the supply constraints faced by Erwin Rommel, along with the General Staff's views on the supplies necessary to take the Suez Canal are available in the work cited below (Rommel's War in Africa) ("This motor transport requirement unacceptable!", as well as an assessment that major obstacles could not be traversed if opposed), and are well known. It is also a well known fact that the USSR did not crumble and surrender immediately in the face of German troops right outside Moscow, While the rest of the article is sound, the section of the 'Grand Strategy for Victory', to me, feels slanted heavily in an ahistorical direction -- we know that historically Rommel was defeated in Africa, while any grand hand-waving plans for German victory clearly never occured. We know that the United States constructed the B-29 specifically to deliver payloads to Europe. We know that the United States developed the atomic bomb. We know that Japan never invaded India. We know that the United States fought a two front war against Germany and Japan. We do NOT know that any of the claims made by this strategy would have held true. None of these facts are 'original scholarship'. As it stands, this article presents this strategy as the alternate which could have won the war when this claim is clearly extremely tenuous. Either this strategy should be removed, or criticism permitted.

DingoWallaby 18:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, I'm not against the criticism or its presence in a section detailing Raeder's plan. But that's one of the problems: we're dealing with a segment that dwarfs the rest of the article. The entire segment detailing his strategy, including criticism, would probably be better off in a more aptly named new article, which would then be linked from this one. I believe a more suitable approach would be similar to that of Alfred Graf von Schlieffen vs. Schlieffen Plan. I agree that the previous iteration of the article was misleading in presenting the strategy as a means through which Germany could have won the war, but presenting the plan of someone of historical significance, no matter how flawed, cannot really be viewed as being biased (the wording and presentation on the other hand, were indeed rather slanted). Even if history did prove some of his reasoning to be flawed, omitting unrealistic aspects of this strategy would be a travesty. My previous action may have been a bit out of step, but several comments and wording issues led to my decision (and my non-neutral/original research objection):

-"Unfortunatly for Nazi Germany, Hitler didn't agree with Raeder's plan and Hitler embarked on a course that would result in Germany's defeat in World War II."

-"with respect to the British and Australian troops in southeast Asia, the defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy was largely an American affair"

-"Far more likely, Stalin, realizing that Hitler has moved a large portion of the German Army south, declares that everybody in the first Soviet tank to enter Berlin will become a Hero of the Soviet Union."

In any case, if you do decide to start out a new article detailing Raeder's strategy and relevant criticism, I'd gladly help out. Nezbie 20:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

---

The statement beginning "Unfortunatly (sic)" ... was not mine but that of whomever added the bit about Raeder's strategy. The bit also used to be prefaced with a statement like, 'This strategy would have guaranteed Hitler's victory' or something along those lines. Further, I do not believe that this is even an accurate summation of Raeder's Mediterranean strategy; this is an offshoot of the foreward to the book "How Hitler Could Have Won World War II", except even more slanted towards some sort of theory of inevitable Nazi victory. You are correct in that this article is not the correct place to discuss this 'strategy', but I believe that if Raeder's Mediterranean strategy is to be presented (in this article or somewhere else) it needs to be written from a more neutral viewpoint and/or presented with a criticism.

DingoWallaby 23:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resignation/demotion

This article states that Raeder was "demoted" to Admiral Inspector in January 1943, and that he "resigned and retired" in May 1943. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Raeder remained at the rank of Großadmiral through the end of the war, i.e. he was never demoted.

I'm also under the impression that he resigned as Commander-in-Chief in January 1943 (not forcibly removed) and that he held the post of Admiral Inspector also through the end of the war (did not resign in May '43). Admiral Inspector as I understand it was entirely an honorary position and created especially for him upon his retirement.

24.21.178.83 02:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

He resigned. Paradoxically, it was the only way he get Hitler to listen to him about not scrapping the surface fleet. Hitler didn't want him gone and is supposed to have asked him to reconsider. I don't believe there was ever any "demotion".

It says in the article about Spandau Prision that Raeder Hated Doenitz after he took the position as Grand Admiral and Commander in Chief of the Navy, but didn't Raeder Recommend Doenitz as his Replacement?

[edit] Raeder or Not?!

The picture really does not look like Raeder at all. It should be removed...

"Admiral Raeder together with Hitler. The officer pictured with Hitler is not Raeder, but a Naval captain."

So, the officer pictured with Hitler is both Raeder and not Raeder? If it is Raeder, why talk about a Captain, if it isn't Raeder, why is it on the Raeder page?!

Edit: From the picture it looks to be Raeder, but I'm no expert and I didnt put the picture up.

--81.151.163.142 00:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll admit he looks like Raeder, but he can't be – the sleeve indicates the rank of Kapitän and Raeder held higher rank long before Hitler came to power.

If no one objects, let's remove this image, as it has no business on Raeder's page.

Alkari 00:54, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the image. Alkari 09:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)