User talk:EstherRice

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Contents 1 Regarding Investcorp wiki page 2 Welcome! 3 Read content a while before editing 4 Synanon 5 Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot 6 RfA thanks

[edit] Regarding Investcorp wiki page

Hi EstherRice, I noticed that you marked the Investcorp article for deletion and I know that the current article looks more like a copyright material - but actually most of it is freely & publically available on the company's annual reports, its websites etc.

Could you suggest the objections that you have with the page ... that way I can work on to improve the page ...

Honestly, I never meant that page to look like an advertisement - only to give some genuine information to anyone who could be searching for it !!

Could you sign your comments if you want a reply?EstherRice 10:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

• I see someone already gave you the "welcome" template, but just thought I'd say Welcome to Wikipedia! Smeelgova 11:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC).
• Thanks, Smeelgova.EstherRice 11:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Read content a while before editing

Hello. I don't know why you feel you think "ontology" is senseless. The Landmark page is a highly contested page- please do not make changes without disucssion on the talk page first. If you don't understand Landmark's pedagogy please don't edit it references to it. Thanks! Alex Jackl 16:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by AJackl (talk • contribs) 16:11, 15 December 2006.

• Thanks for not explaining your point. Also, thank you for choosing not to sign properly. The usage of 'ontology' makes no sense in either accepted sense of the word (which I won't spell out for you). I read pretty much the whole turgid thing, the page up to 'Criticism' is like a pamphlet for the 'group'; no wonder it is 'contested'.EstherRice 09:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synanon

• I am not that familiar with this group. Do you know of any references/citations comparing it to Landmark Education? If you cite them, it is more likely that your "see also" will stay in the article longer. Also or alternatively, you could add these citations and perhaps some additional information to the article Synanon. Smeelgova 11:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

By the way, I was happy to be able to protect your well-researched contributions to *that* article and to see that you are not on here all day every day. I guess you have read the article on Synanon. I initially came across them in a behaviourist-inclined university course on psych., they were mentioned in the same lecture as the "human potential movement", which sounded worthy at the time, but I wonder ... I don't have first-hand knowledge of Synanon, the reason I make the comparison is that the techniques are similar, the use of random verbal abusiveness, deprivation, humiliation etc. to break a person down. They are also one of many phenomena that has become less notable given the WWW and short or non-existent memories. In the case of Synanon, the stated goal (at least at first) was drug rehabilitation; break down the personality, and you relieve the subject of addiction. They were the main model for the New Path organisation in A Scanner Darkly (a work of fiction that I think you would particularly enjoy for the depiction of said organisation). Perhaps I will have to do some research, but doesn't demonstrable (simply from the cited sources on this site) similarity of technique justify a "see also"? I have come across "believers" who perceived or were aware of a more explicit connection (between est et al. and Synanon), but that was not recent. I can assure you that the techniques have essentially the same basis.ER^Talk 12:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Though certain editors' personal opinions after reading over the two articles may be that Synanon belongs in the "see also" section, it seems that on Wikipedia this is not enough, and for your link to have staying power you'll have to make a case for it - either with citations or with a mention in one of the 2 articles themselves somehow. Thank you for saying that my contributions are "well-researched"! It is most appreciated to know that there are some people out there that appreciate my edits. It is not often that I get any compliments. Smeelgova 13:04, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

Hi Esther. I don't know how familiar you are with Landmark Education, or if you have just heard about it. I have quite a bit of experience both in participating in and around the company and in researching its past. I am writing this to try and explain why I reverted you Synanon reference on the Landmark page (and I was the editor that did it). I am not trying to convince you that "Landmark is a good thing" or "est was a good thing" or anything like that - I am extending an olive branch by explaining my point of view so you are not left with that your content was spuriously deleted. There are two core issues that have made the Landmark site so volatile:

(1) There is a group of people who see Landmark as the SAME as est and believe it is nothing more than an "est in Sheep's clothing" :-). These people also believe est was a cult and a bad thing. I personally (just so you know) have no real opinion about est and Werner Erhardt- I will leave that to the historians and the people who had a real experience of it. However, I am one of the group of editors who believes that the link between est and Landamrk, while noteworthy and interesting in itself, is primarily of historical interest and of little primary importance on the Landmark Education page. Coming from that world view you can imagine that anyone attempting to draw a link to Landmark because there might be a link to est is met with considerable skepticism.

(2) The basis of your comparison is that the "styles" of the Synanon Game" and Landmark's programs are similar. This is possibly the most divisive point between the editors of the Landamrk page and where the greatest gulf is. One stance is that Landmark is a cult of some kind and utilizes cult-like practices. On the other side (of which I clearly am a part of) is that there is NO or poor evidence of that and it isn't. I know NOTHING about Synanon but am willing - looking through the links on the Synanon page and taking you at your word- to believe it is a destructive and hurtful organization. But the horrible activities described on the Synanon page- humiliation, emasculation, forced marriages, shaving of heads- that is crazy! Nothing like that goes on at Landmark. People get fired from Landmark if they make an innappropriate pass at someone. Because of the bad press- primarily from its relationship to est- Landamrk is extremely sensitive to creating a professional safe environment for its courses. There is nothing like that kind of stuff going on. If you were going to accuse Landmark of being manipulative in its marketing practices or pressuring people to buy their product - that kind of stuff has happened on occasion. It is aggravated sometimes by well-meaning people who volunteer and overly enthusiatically press people to register. Landmark tries to manage that and sometimes fails. That is literally the worst of it. There is nothing more sinister.

Now there are editors who disagree- they claim that Landmark is harmful and manipulative. That is why we debate and discuss and use the Talk page. It is my firmest belief that the opinions about it being harmful are old conversations and if people saw Landamrk as it is today with unfiltered views they would go - "Oh, that isn't bad" or "Wow- that is actually pretty great!". Perhaps I am naive and overly optimistic in saying that. This long winded response is to atteppt to give you a sense of why people have some of the stance they do- from this editor's point of view.

Alex Jackl 16:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Alex, I appreciate the detailed reply (to remarks that weren't addressed to you, but I think that is better than not bothering, and it is relevant to the page). Anyway, I will try to respond in kind, except less circuitously. Since est and Mr. Rosenberg are the basis for Landmark Ed.'s "technologies" and you are openly a supporter of Landmark, it seems disingenuous to claim no personal interest in them.

These people also believe est was a cult

in conjunction with

One stance is that Landmark is a cult of some kind and utilizes cult-like practices. On the other side ...

seems to imply a perceived connection on your own part.

The major supporting link seems to be The Best of Est.

I still intend to establish the link between Synanon and Landmark, but of course that will take time. I have had very creepy experiences with a large clique trying to pressure and trick me into taking Rosenberg-related courses. Worse for supporters of them, I have had close friends who took them, were only shocked and irritated by the "techniques", and were thus subsequently willing to talk openly about what went on (which, as you must know, is supposed to be against policy).

From here I will veer on and off the central topic. The only part of the Synanon history that I really know about is the use of verbal and other forms of humiliation to break down the subject (in theory to break the addiction), and that this was (and no doubt still is) oddly seen by some in psychiatry and particularly psychology as having a connection with Esalen and HIP. My opinion of Esalen is mixed at best. HP as a general goal accompanied by freedom of development of the person is great. This certainly doesn't mean breaking a person into a more profitable performer within the social environment while profiting therefrom.

However, I cannot see the connection between Esalen and HP on the one hand and est or anything derived from its principles on the other.

Essentially, people like the professor I first heard about these things from admired Synanon for using brainwashing techniques to bend the person rather than use a humanistic approach, seeing this as a valid way to achieve human potential. My subsequent reading assured me that he is not alone. Anyway, it is on this point that the basis of the "techniques" (i.e. est, the Forum), at the very least, has a direct familial relation with Synanon. They are, at least, first cousins, springing from the same intellectual pool in the same general climate. The big difference appears to be that the most direct antecedents (in terms of the school in which the founder was initially trained) were Alcoholics Anonymous for Synanon and Scientology for Mr. Rosenberg.

The forced marriages and emasculation (do you mean that in the literal sense?), although the article states that they started before the professor cited Synanon in lectures I attended, are news to me, but the flow rings true.

The shaven heads thing is interesting. All of the characters in George Lucas' first feature film, THX 1138 (a very interesting movie on many levels) had shaven heads as part of the scenario. Most of the extras in the movie (other than police and bureaucrats) are from Synanon (this is openly acknowledged by anyone involved in actually making the thing, including Lucas). A publicity movie made at the time (only saw it because it is on the DVD) plays on the trauma of the lead actress having her head shaved. So, did the characters have shaven heads because Lucas was using extras from Synanon and the extras had shaven heads, or was it the other way around?ER^Talk 13:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• Very very interesting stuff. EstherRice, for a "family tree" of sorts of all these intersting organizations, see "The Awareness Page" Though not a formal source that one would normally be able to cite/quote within an article, it establishes some intriguing connections between certain individuals, courses they were active in, and then subsequent for-profit "awareness" companies that those individuals went on to become founder of, after leaving their prior groups... Smeelgova 13:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Here is an older article discussing both groups, albeit not comparing them: Special Report: The World of Cults, Newsweek, April 12, 1978. Smeelgova 13:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Yes, I came across the former but at the time was only looking for something to make the link stick. Intend to look at it in more detail, I have read the other but can't remember it well.

By the way, I wonder why Alex Jackl is so reluctant to sign things? I notice the last 'please sign' was erased with an untrue edit summary. Must be a technique. Anyway, must go.ER^Talk 14:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey! (looking hurt and injured) What do you mean I don't sign things? If you look at the VAST majority of my posts I almost always sign- when I haven't it is only by mistake and I fix it when I catch or it is pointed out to me. I am not sure why this keeps coming up... Alex Jackl 19:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by AJackl (talk • contribs) 19:16, Jan 8, 2007 (UTC).

humiliation, emasculation, forced marriages, shaving of heads - Some regard Landmark Education's tactics of using, ah, shall we say firm language when a "Forum Leader" is giving "advice" to an individual, whilst that individual is standing up at a microphone in front of over 100 people/strangers - as humiliation. Forced marriages at Landmark? This I have never heard of, but I have heard from others that it is an interesting phenomenon - where divorces will occur after one spouse has taken part in the coursework - and the other has not or refuses to. "Shaving of heads", ha ha, a friend of a friend of mine had once observed that there were a significant proportion of male staff/volunteers at Landmark with shaved heads - but I'm not sure I lend much credence to that one either - at least, not until I hear more about it from the individual directly - or from more reputable sources that is... Smeelgova 13:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

I wasn't trying to imply that Landmark uses any but the first, and possibly the second in a figurative sense. I have seen the separation phenomenon in the predecessor organisations at first hand (second, really, as an onlooker), but it looked more like forced separation than forced marriage. Head shaving, well, a nice yolk ... perhaps.ER^Talk 14:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Of the four categories only the first is subject to debate. Landmark is all about individual choice. The idea of emasculation of course is ridiculous. Ther eare no forced marriages or forced divorces. Period. If people do divorce after I owuld be willing to bet- although I haven't got data o nmthis that the divorce rate of people going to graduate school or any other education is higher! People do choose ne wpaths when they do landamrk- it is about building your future. So divorces do happen diretcly out of choices people make out of doing the Landmark Forum but more marriages do then divorces. The shaving of heads thing is just crazy- if ther eis some social phenomonon linking people who hshave their heads with participation in Landmark I owuld lvoe to see that correlation! :-) Of course, there is nothing in the program that calls for that at all. Alex Jackl 19:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You mention above "Since est and Mr. Rosenberg are the basis for Landmark Ed.'s "technologies" and you are openly a supporter of Landmark, it seems disingenuous to claim no personal interest in them." Well- it is not disingenuous - I really mean it. I could care less. For all I know, many of the accusations people have about the est Trianing could be true. I REALLY don't know - I wasn't there, it is all before my time. It is like going to a tire repair place and someone claiming you should be interested in the former owner of the shop who invente done of the tire repair machines. I don't car eabout the former owner- what is relevant to me a little is the current owner but primarily I concern myself with whether the tire repair machine works or not. It is that way for me with est and Werner Erhardt. I just don't about it and him- except what I have heard. I have heard current Forum Leaders who knew Werner and know him say positive things about him. I have a lot of respect for the concepts Landmark uses and to whatever extant Werner Erhardt synthesized them into the technology that Landmark built itself on I admire that aspect. Whether he invented those concepts and distinctions out of whole cloth, stole some of them from other philosophies or even religions like Scientology. SHRUG. I am interested in those topics but it is ancient history to me and - form my world view- 90% of everyone else. But for some est and Landmark are the same and they ar estill comparing stuff that happene din 75 and then saying things like "therefore Landmark..". Alex Jackl 19:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I really want to get at the core of the disagreement that is happening between some of the editors on the Landmark site so we can move on. Alex Jackl 19:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The other interesting thing you said is "Rosenberg-like " courses. I think there were a lot of offspring form est- Trainers who left and did other things, started other courses. est was a major event and a lot of people were involved. I bet some of them were even total kooks. I bet your organizations have kooks in them. You get a sufficiently large human organization and you will have representation of all the bad and all the good in human society. Just because some est trainer in 75 left est and then started "Donut Worshipers of Argentina" (I making something ridiulous up just for us to talk about) ther eis NO connection - except historical between the "Donut Worshippers of Argentina" and Landmark Education. I surmise you have had bad experiences with est, Esther, or possibly with Landmark, but that doesn't make it a cult or like Synonon, or any of those things.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by AJackl (talk • contribs) 19:16, Jan 8, 2007 (UTC).

I'm not really in the mood for Wikipedia today, but *will reply at length* the next time I log on. One thing I must say, however, is that having been wise enough to resist the manipulation and pressure and not sign up, I have certainly not had bad experiences with either est or Landmark. Rather, I have had numerous distasteful encounters with believers in these and similar programs.ER^Talk 06:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Next time.ER^Talk 12:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] RfA thanks

Thank you for your support on my Request for adminship, which finished successfully, with unanimous support of 40/0/0. I will do my best to serve Wikipedia and the community. Again thanks.
--Meno25 08:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)