Talk:Ethnic groups in the Philippines

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Archive 1 (September 2005-March 2006) Archive 2 (April 2006-)

Hello and Welcome to the Talk Page of the Ethnic Groups of the Philippines article. Please help maintain a scholarly environment in the discussion of issues relevant to this article. Thank You.

Contents 1 Smaller Ethnic Groups 2 Isn't having two collages a bit redundant? 2.1 Straw poll 2.1.1 Results of straw poll 2.1.2 Other additions 2.1.2.1 Straw poll 2.1.3 Tag to use in collages 2.1.4 Creating a new collage 2.1.5 Questions 2.1.6 Principles 3 Things to do 4 Recent survey 5 Pictures in the ethnic groups section 6 This collage 7 question 8 Vietnam or Cambodia? 9 Arrangement 10 Bisaya as an ethnic group

[edit] Smaller Ethnic Groups

The Zamboangueño Chavacanos - smaller? ethnic? --Weekeejames 11:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Isn't having two collages a bit redundant?

--Nino Gonzales 01:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Lets remove one of them. (And why is this centered? LOL) --Howard the Duck | talk, 23:55, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me see what I can do to fix it before deleting.One week?--Jondel 00:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The collages you are referring to are the faces in the main article?--Jondel 00:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd choose the first (top) one over the bottom one. --Howard the Duck | talk, 00:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've been testing out at the sandbox but it I can't get the archive templates to appear on top.--Jondel 02:32, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice! Keep it up HtD!Add another pogi point! --Jondel 00:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I hijacked that from User talk:Jimbo Wales hehehe --Howard the Duck | talk, 04:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the collage, I think the second one (bottom) would be more informative, as it shows each and every person from an ethnic group together in a multifaceted collage. While the first one (original) is OK, and I'd say, excellent, its' pictures are , however, unnecessarily repeated on the bottom. Another thing...the second one represents the Filipinos more (I mean, phenotypically). While it is quite obvious in the second collage that Filipinos are *good looking*, it does represent what they are, not only that, it also represents the prominent ethnic groups in equal proportion with the other groups I guess, equal opportunity is important in diversity, right? Aside from those discussions presented herein, since the Mestizos are overrepresented in the economic sector, we might as well give some recogniton due them by placing their pictures here. Equality and equity wise (also putting into consideration the unnecessary repetitions) , I surmise that nothing is wrong with this collage. And lastly, the collage is populated by images, not mere artist renderings.  :) -- User:Matthewprc

I don't want to say which one is better because I made one of them and would unavoidably have a bias... hehe...

OK, I'll explain the why of the 4x4 collage:

Inclusiveness
I think a collage of ethnic groups in the Ph should contain:
1) An Ilocano
2) A Pangasinense
3) A Kapampangan
4) A Tagalog
5) A Bicolano
6) A Bisaya
7) A Muslim Filipino
8) Tribal folk
9) A Chinese/mestizo/a
10) A Spanish/mestizo/a
Optional:
Other minorities (Japs, Indonesians, Americans, Germans, Indians)

Proportionality
I think this should be based on
1) Population size
2) Historical significance

Here are population percentages as well as historical significance
1) Bisaya (Cebuano+Ilonggo+Waray+Aklanon+etc=~30million=~40%)
2) Tagalog (~20million=~25%)
3) Ilocano (~9million=~11%)
4) Tribal groups (~10%)
5) Moro (~5%)
But we don't want 40% of the collage to be Bisaya, or 1/4 to be Tagalog, right?
I think as long as we put at least one for each, that would already be OK. No?
6) Spanish/mestizo/a - 333 years of Spain... There would have been no Philippines without that experience (Ultranationalist would cringe at hearing this, but as Nick Joaquin would say, there's nothing inevitable with geography)
7) Chinese/mestizo/a - We could not ignore the Chinese's/mestizo's role in the Revolution and in commerce

So, 1) Aeta girl (Tribal)
2) Nur Misuari (Moro)
3) GMA (Kapampangan)
4) Roco (Bicolano)
5) Quezon (Spanish-Tagalog)
6) Jaya (not sure of her ancestry, but she adds diversity to the collage)
7) Pedro Calungsod (El Bisayo)
8) Kris Aquino (Chinese-Tagalog)
9) A Moro Woman
10) Lucio Tan (Taipan of Fukienese origin)
11) Lucy Torres (Spanish Mestiza)
12) Marcos (Ilocano)
13) Ramos (Pangasinense)
14) Jolina (Manilenya)
15) Rizal (THE Tagalog)
16) A Tribal woman

I tried to make it as few as possible. But if you make it 3x4, I think you miss out on some groups.

I am strongly opposed to basing representation solely on perceived or real dominance in business.

And putting a Korean (just a few hundred thousands and mostly transients) is clearly unproportional.

Who's that girl beside Budoy? I do not think she is Cebuana.

And I am strongly, very strongly, for using Pedro Calungsod, however he is represented, to represent the Bisaya.

I am OK with either collage. But if the 2nd one is chosen, please:
1) Have an equal number of male and female
2) Fix the arrangement (like don't put the two tribal girls next to each other)
3) Try not to have a Manilenyo POV (it is currently dominated by people who live in Manila)
4) Fix the distortion of Lucio Tan's face
(but don't work on this yet until we choose which one to retain)

But I won't vote, since, again, I'm unavoidably biased. --Nino Gonzales 02:51, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Lets just wait a bit for other opinions? There is no rush anyway(?)--Jondel 05:52, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, I'd want the first collage, then the caption used on the second collage maybe be applied to the first collage. Also, it'll be better if we have public domain images. --Howard the Duck | talk, 10:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes :) Let's conduct a voting on this matter (but only others should vote) - place reasons for choosing either one of the two collage. Actually the heart of the matter is about he definition of who is the FIlipino. I think that there is nothing wrong with putting an image of a Korean in he collage, since being Filipino is not based on bloodlines, but on emotions as well as on culture (Enriquez, 1976). As for the usage of the term Filipino, I have many sources on what is 'a FIlipino and what is not'. Similarly, an American citizen residing among the FIlipinos for many years as a missionary (assumed that he US national has a "Filipino heart") is considered more as a Filipino rather than the typical primarily English-speaking rich "konyo" teens who are brought up in Western tradition and in the love of everything American (y'know what I mean if you are a Filipino). - This is how Filipino Psychology defines what and who is a FIlipino. Now for the other parts: The girl beside 'Budoy' is actually a Cebuana, she is Ruffa Gutierrez-Bektas. As for Pedro Calungsod, yes, he really represents all the Bisayans, but (I think) it is more important for a photo of a real person to be depicted, rather than an artist's rendition (If there's no Calungsod photo, you might as well choose a Cebuano/a, since they actually represent the Bisayans ever since the Spanish Colonial Era). And, yes, all are public domain photos. The arrangement of the 2nd collage is based on the flow of the article. The first collage is based on the images already present in the body of the article (which means that there is an unncessary repetition and redundancy). I would really want to hear others' opinions on why they DO NOT want the second collage. Hehe. :) -- User:Matthewprc, 12:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

First, who is a Filipino? Or better yet, who represents the Filipino race the best? Nino's collage has:

1. Aeta girl (Tribal)
2. Nur Misuari (Moro)
3. GMA (Kapampangan)
4. Roco (Bicolano)
5. Quezon (Spanish-Tagalog)
6. Jaya (not sure of her ancestry, but she adds diversity to the collage)
7. Pedro Calungsod (El Bisayo)
8. Kris Aquino (Chinese-Tagalog)
9. A Moro Woman
10. Lucio Tan (Taipan of Fukienese origin)
11. Lucy Torres (Spanish Mestiza)
12. Marcos (Ilocano)
13. Ramos (Pangasinense)
14. Jolina (Manilenya)
15. Rizal (THE Tagalog)
16. A Tribal woman

Matt's collage has:

1. Imee Marcos (Ilokano)
2. JDV (Pangasinense)
3. A Pinoy Teen Big Brother housemate (dunno her ethnicity)
4. "P"GMA (Capampangan)
5. Roco (Bicolano)
6. Who's that?
7. see no. 6
8. A Pinoy Celebrity Big Brother housemate (he's Bisaya)
9. Nur Misuari (Bangsamoro)
10. Some tribal woman
11. The same woman from Nino's collage
12. See no. 12
13. Lucio Tan (Chinese)
14. Kris Aquino (Chinese-Spanish)
15. Isabel Presyler
16. Pilita Corrales (Spanish mestiza)
17. A Pinoy Big Brother Season 1 housemate (American?)
18. see no. 17
19. Sandara Park (Korean)
20. see no. 6

Summing up, Nino's collage, despite having fewer entries is more diversified, more English language speakers may know them, and some of Matt's pictures came from Nino's collage. Also, three pictures came from Big Brother, and no entry from GMA-7 (lol)? So what's next? Itchyworms getting their own entry? (lol). Nino's collage is better, if you'd ask me. For example if someone from Boise, Idaho does a research on this subject, he'd assume that all Bisayas look like Budoy. Lets have a better representation on each ethnic group, and in which they maybe more known internationally. As of now, Nino's collage is better.

Or we can remove all collages altogether. --Howard the Duck | talk, 13:15, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, if the people want to remove whaterver, let us remove whatever… hehe

But, I think pictures are very useful. How about we vote for individual pictures rather than collages? That way, we might end up with a better and community made collage? I guess me and Matt could already vote.

Okay, instead of a collage, lets just have a singular picture representing a particular ethnic group in each section. Collages are impossible to license, unless all of the pics are from the public domain. --Howard the Duck | talk,

[edit] Straw poll

The poll has ended. Do not edit the poll immediately below. --Howard the Duck 13:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Aeta girl (Tribal) I support at least 1 Aeta pic -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Support --User:Matthewprc

Support --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record}

• Nur Misuari (Moro) I support any Moro pic -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Support --User:Matthewprc

Support --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record}

• GMA (Kapampangan) I support any Kapampangan pic -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Support --User:Matthewprc

Support --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record}

• Roco (Bicolano) I support any Bicolano pic -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Support --User:Matthewprc

Support --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record}

• Quezon (Spanish-Tagalog) I support any Filipino with Spanish ancestry especially if s/he is either part of the landed gentry (maybe someone from Western Visayas) or of showbiz (I think these are the steroetypes) -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Neutral: I would choose photos over paintings. --User:Matthewprc

Support but comment: Are there any public domain pictures of Manuel Quezon? At least the portraits are PD, so in terms of the copyright license, it's easier. --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record}

• Jaya (not sure of her ancestry, but she adds diversity to the collage) Neutral -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Neutral. She's Afro-Filipino? --User:Matthewprc

Conditional support: We need to know Jaya's ethnicity first. --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record}

Support --23prootie Her mom looks Aeta and was married to an American. I think she's part African-American

• Pedro Calungsod (El Bisayo) - Very very strong and obstinate support. I will fight for this unto expulsion from Wikipedia… hehe… If needed I will make an essay why Pedro Calungsod is the most appropriate pic for the Bisaya, and why this particular representation (there are others) is the most appropriate representation. But I suggest you just take my word for it; I’m Bisaya. However, I support changing the pic in the Bisaya section. Maybe an Ilongo, a Cebuano and a Waray? For Cebuano, I strongly support Sergio Osmena. -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Neutral. I'd rather get Sergio Osmena. --Howard the Duck | talk

Comment: I'd get some person with a real photograph (not an artist's rendering). I would suggest that you pick someone who is like part-Cebuano part-Waray....lol. You won't b expelled from Wikipedia :) --User:Matthewprc

All of the Presidents' portraits are in the public domain, so its easier to license them. --Howard the Duck | talk. Addendum: Actually, you can be expelled from Wikipedia if you upload copyrighted material and pass it off either as fair use if it is not fairly used (collages is not fair use) or use another image tag for a copyrighted image. --Howard the Duck | talk, 07:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• A Moro Woman - I support any Moro -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Comment: For me, I think one Moro picture is enough. lol. --User:Matthewprc

• Lucio Tan (Taipan of Fukienese origin) – I particularly support a Taipan of Chinese descent -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Fookien are Chinese too, right? Or perhaps you're thinking about Mandarins. Otherwise, support. --Howard the Duck | talk

Comment: Fukienese and Cantonese are Sinicized Yuehs (meaning they are more related to VIetnamese and Filipinos than to the Mandarins-see the Han Chinese article. Anyway, it would be better to put one Fujianese and one Cantonese --User:Matthewprc

• Lucy Torres (Spanish Mestiza) – same comment as Quezon -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. We have too many Spanish people already. One would be enough. --Howard the Duck | talk

Oppose. The picture is in sepia format, which makes the pic somewhat unsightly. --User:Matthewprc

• Ferdinand Marcos (Ilocano) – I support any Ilocano -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Neutral. I would suggest Imee Marcos because Ferdinand Marcos's portrait is an anrtist's rendition. But if there's a Marcos pic bearing his 'true' image, then Support. --User:Matthewprc

but imee marcos is a half-ilokano. she don't even speak the iloko language well. if ferdinand marcos is to be subsituted, be it an another pure ilokano president: elpidio quirino. --Saluyot 11:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Ramos (Pangasinense) – I support any Pangasinense -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Neutral. I would suggest Jose de Venecia because Fidel Ramos' portrait is an anrtist's rendition. But if there's a Ramos pic bearing his 'true' image, then Support. --User:Matthewprc

Support --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record} 11:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Neutral. ramos, in fact, though born in asingan, pangasinan (some say lingayen, pangasinan though), is not ethnically a pangasinense but an ilokano. --Saluyot 11:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Jolina (Manilenya) – Neutral -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Perhaps we can add another Manilenya/Manilenyo. Or Quezon will be good enough. Majority of Manilenyos are Tagalogs too. --Howard the Duck | talk

Oppose. For me, there is no need to put a Manilenyo since Manilenyos are of Tagalog descent --User:Matthewprc

Oppose per above. --Akira ^{Say what? |}

Track record 11:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Most Manilenyos are actually of Visayan descent. Support since she's Manilenya. - --23prootie

• Rizal (THE Tagalog) – Support, but I want to hear the opinions of Tagalogs -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Neutral. I would suggest that a more modern photo of a Tagalog (like the second collage, featuring Jamilla Obispo from PBB, who hails from Laguna). --User:Matthewprc

No Rizal? A person from Boise, Idaho may know Rizal, but not Jamilla. --Howard the Duck | talk

Support --Akira ^{Say what? | Track record} 11:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Saluyot 11:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• A Tribal woman – I support at least 1 non-Negrito tribal person -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support --Howard the Duck | talk

Support --User:Matthewprc

• Imee Marcos (Ilokano) – same comment as her father -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Ferdinand Marcos will do. --Howard the Duck | talk

Support. A photo is always better than a painting. lol. -- User:Matthewprc

• JDV (Pangasinense) – neutral -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Ramos is enough. --Howard the Duck | talk

Support. A photo is always better than a painting. lol. -- User:Matthewprc

Re:Support: But Ramos's portrait is in the public domain. That's easier to license. --Howard the Duck | talk

• A Pinoy Teen Big Brother housemate (dunno her ethnicity) – oppose -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose --Howard the Duck | talk

Support. She is Tagalog. Would be nicer if a modern Tagalog is represented -- User:Matthewprc

Then if a modern Tagalog is represented, I'd rather see Erap. --Howard the Duck | talk

• Ruffa Guttierez – Very strong oppose from a Cebuano -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Why? Otherwise, oppose too. Too many Cebuanos already. Lets get a Waray. Is Ted Failon Waray? --Howard the Duck | talk

Support. She looks exactly like a typical Cebuana lass --

User:Matthewprc

Support. I think there should be a female Bisaya. --

23prootie

• Budoy (he's Bisaya) – Support in the Bisaya section; not in the collage -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Too many Cebuanos already. But if he's Waray, support.--Howard the Duck | talk

Support. -- User:Matthewprc

• Isabel Presyler – very slight oppose -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support. Either Presyler or Corrales, only one should be added. --Howard the Duck | talk

Support. Either Preysler or Corrales -- User:Matthewprc

• Pilita Corrales (Spanish mestiza) – neutral -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support. Either Presyler or Corrales, only one should be added. --Howard the Duck | talk

Support. Either Preysler or Corrales -- User:Matthewprc

• A Pinoy Big Brother Season 1 housemate (American?) – oppose -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Sam Milby, support inclusion of an American. We can get another American. KC Montero, perhaps? Or Lou Diamond Phillips? --Howard the Duck | talk

Support the other American Mestizo pic (a PBB Teen housemate) -- User:Matthewprc

• Sandara Park (Korean) – oppose in the collage; support in the “minorities” section -Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: are we going to add individual pictures in the minorities section too? I don't see other ethnic groups/racial demographics articles doing that. IMHO, we should add more charts and graphs rather than photos. Support adding of a Korean in tbe collage. --Howard the Duck | talk, 06:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Support. She has been brought up in the culture and tradition of Filipinos, so she can pass off as a Filipina. -- User:Matthewprc

Though that maybe true for Sandara, I dunno about other Koreans. I'd rather see a Filipino-Indian.--Howard the Duck | talk,

Comment: I think a picture of Iwa Moto would be better. She's half-Japanese, half-Filipino --23prootie |

She's not notable enough. The collages must be a person a foreigner knows, aside from the indigenous peoples. --Howard the Duck 04:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Please add anyone you want to include in the collage. I suggest we limit it to 4x4. The lesser, the better, in my opinion. I also suggest we have the same number of men and women.--Nino Gonzales 02:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Back to which collage, I would choose the collage on top because the bottom second one has bad focus. The images are not sharp.--Jondel 11:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Results of straw poll

The following would compose the collage:

1. An aeta girl
2. Nur Misuari for Moros
3. Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo for Capampangans
4. Raul Roco for Bicolanos
5. Lucio Tan for Chinese-Filipinos
6. Jose Rizal for Tagalogs
7. A tribal woman
8. Either Isabel Presyler or Pilita Corrales. Make up your minds now. If either of the following gets nominated, we should have a public domain picture. Just reviewed votes and there were opposition and neutral votes.

• Another straw poll is found below to decide on who will represent the Ilonggos and the Warays.

how about the ilokanos and the pangasinenses? --Saluyot 03:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

include them in the poll below. --Howard the Duck 03:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other additions

Add them here. --Howard the Duck | talk, 06:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• Lets get an Ilonggo. Miriam Defensor-Santiago? Jaime Cardinal Sin? --Howard the Duck | talk, 06:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
• I'm thinking, based on the comments above, that we should have a Waray in the collage. I'm thinking Imelda Marcos (unless she isn't Waray) or an alternative if not possible. --Akira123323 ^{Say what? | Track record} 02:51, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Straw poll

Who should represent the following:

• Warays
  • Imelda Marcos --Howard the Duck 13:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

• Ilonggos
  • Jaime Cardinal Sin --Howard the Duck 13:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Miriam Defensor-Santiago -- Saluyot 03:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Magdalena Jalandoni (a literary figure, for a change)--Nino Gonzales 17:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose. No article?

• Chinese Mestizo/a
  • Kris Aquino (should have been in the earlier poll)--Nino Gonzales 17:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose. We already agreed upon a Chinese (Lucio Tan) already. However, if we can get a public domain/non-copyrighted pic of Kris then i'll support. --Howard the Duck
    • Oppose. lucio tan is aptly enough. lucio tan is more chinese than kris, btw. -- Saluyot 02:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Jaime Cardinal Sin--Nino Gonzales 17:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose. We already agreed upon a Chinese (Lucio Tan) already. However, if we can get a public domain/non-copyrighted pic of the Cardinal then i'll support. --Howard the Duck
    • Oppose. same reason above. -- Saluyot 02:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
• Ilocanos
  • Ferdinand Marcos or Elpidio Quirino --Saluyot 13:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Support. Ferdinand Marcos' pic on List of Presidents of the Philippines.

• Pangasinenses
  • add your nomination here.

• Cebuanos
  • add your nomination here.

[edit] Tag to use in collages

I can't imagine that using a copyrighted image in a novel work of art (the collage) would qualify as fair use. I think any collage uploaded to Wikipedia would have to consist of images either in the public domain or released under a free license permitting modification. User:Angr 09:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC) (From Wikipedia talk:Fair use#Collages)

• Template:PD-Philippines can be used for PD images of Philippine origin, while Template:PD-PhilippinesGov can be used for government-made pictures. Hopefully we can find some free pictures. Btw, I'll check into PD in Philippine copyright law when I go back to Manila later today (I'm in Subic using a mobile phone browser right now). --Akira123323 ^{Say what? | Track record} 03:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

If we can see some personalities in Philippine government websites then they might be PD. Both collages contain copyrighted material and they are not fairly used. --Howard the Duck | talk, 07:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Creating a new collage

OK, somebody deleted the two collages in question (it wasn't me who initiated it). Now on the 12th we would have finished the poll and we could construct a new collage. --Howard the Duck 08:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Dude, what's the criteria for selection? Only the pics with all support? (It seems this is your criterial for the selection above) How about the pics without opposition but with neutral comments?--Nino Gonzales 02:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Those with unanimous support were included. Unless the neutral and oppose votes were acted upon, they can't be included. Another problem was that there were very few votes, if there are oppose votes, it will be hard to ignore, but when there are, for example, 10 votes and only 1 opposed, then we can include it. --Howard the Duck 02:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't neutral mean that they don't mind if it is included (or not)? Where should we put more comments--since you wrote that we should not touch the poll?--Nino Gonzales 03:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

In any case, the poll had a run of almost 2 months, it was supposed to end on Independence Day but I ended it yesterday. In any case, anybody can end his/her suggestion on the new straw poll. The older poll's decisions are final, but if other wikipedians insist on their own agenda, they can always add options to the new straw poll. --Howard the Duck 03:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Could we include the unopposed pictures? The voting is final I suppose but I don't think we ever agreed that pictures with neutral comments should not be included.--Nino Gonzales 03:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, only pictures that have neutral and support votes will be included. Those with oppose won't, unless they provide a better public domain image. --Howard the Duck 03:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Principles

Could we first agree on the principles that would guide us to select the appropriate pictures to represent the Ethnic Groups in the Philippines? Like I think it is important that it should have an equal number of men and women.

I made a separate page to list down these principles and perhaps be our scratchpad for the creation of the collage and other pictures. Right now it’s just some guidelines that I have proposed some months ago. Perhaps we could develop it to become some sort of guideline.

The page is located here: Ethnic_groups_in_the_Philippines/Pictures --Nino Gonzales 02:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Things to do

Here’s a more positive discussion:

I think work is needed on the following. Any help would be appreciated: --Nino Gonzales 05:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• Expand the Pangasinense section
• Discuss what ethnicity means in the Philippines
  • There are no official “ethnicities”
  • It is most of the time not clear cut
  • ”Filipino” as an ethnicity
• Find better pictures (I think it would be better to have ones with the same size; currently (May 11, 2006) many pictures are too small. Another way is to reupload the pics after saving them using a larger size. Thumbnails don’t work if the original pic is smaller than the thumbnail
  • Comment: I'd rather have public domain images no matter how ugly it is or whether it is a painting. --Howard the Duck | talk, 08:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
• Find references for the History section

A NEW PERSPECTIVE: I would suggest using FIlipino Psychology in defining who is the Filipino (see discussion above). Culture rather than nationality, is the best way to define who is and who is not FIlipino. I would encourage the contributors to reinforce the Sino-Austronesian ancestry (and Hispano-Austronesian culture) of Filipinos - the Guamanians who look exactly like Filipinos, love to reinforce their Hispano-Austronesian culture and ancestry, and as such, have been able to discover their true identity (unlike Filipinos, who still continue to disparage their Hispano-Austronesian identity). Today, the Guamanians are considered as a Hispano-Austronesian people and their language, a Hispano-Austronesian one. As for the ethnicity, the vst majority of scholars agree that the Phils. have 13 major ethnolinguistic groups (and this means separating the Bisayans into Cebuano, Ilonggo, and Waray). Since there is no official policy on what is an ethnic group, the contributors on this article should reach a consensus on defining the ethnicity in Philippine context. Now, if a person has mixed ethnicity, which is very common nowadays (Cebuano-Waray, Tagalog-Pampangueno, etc.), it is better if you put him on the group which he considers the more closer group (to himself).-- User:Matthewprc 12:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think there should be some more discussion on who the Filipino is. Maybe we could make an article on Who is a Filipino? similar to Who is a Jew?? We should try to capture all POV’s. Perhaps it is also better to give the different definitions of ethnicity in the Philippine context rather than define it?

And yes, Cebuano, Ilongo and Waray are 3 of the 13 ethnolinguistic groups with more than a million speakers. However, ethnolinguistic group is not always equal to ethnic group. There are multilingual ethnic groups. And two of the most renowned Filipino intellectuals with very different viewpoints – Nick Joaquin and Teodoro Agoncillo – have both used Visayan when talking about the different groups in the Philippines.--Nino Gonzales 02:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

And you mentioned that Cebuanos represent Visayans. In my opinion, this is shouldn’t be. It just happens that Cebuano speakers are twice as many as Waray-waray and Ilongo speakers combined. But if you ask Visayans themselves, they will say they are Bisaya regardless of whatever Visayan language it is they speak. Some even get offended when people equate Bisaya to Cebuano, perhaps like non-white Americans get offended when people equate Americano to White.--Nino Gonzales 03:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, actually, this shouldn't be. However, as you said, Visayans view themselves as Visayans, and not as Waray, Cebuano, etc. So, you can just label them as, say, Ilonggo-speaking Visayan people, Cebuano-speaking Visayan people, Waray-speaking Visayan people, ROmblomanon-speaking Visayan people, etc. In this case, you might as well employ anyone from the Visayan domain, be it Ilonggo, Cebuano, Waray, etc., as a Visayan.. -- User:Matthewprc

IMHO, I think the term "Visayan" is a similar case to the term "Igorot". To my own perception, the Visayans are those who come from the Visayas, regardless if they are Cebuano, Waray, Ilonggo... Just like the Igorot. It refers to the people of the Cordilleras, but they are divided into Ibaloi, Kankana-ey, Ifontok, Ifugao, Isneg, and many more.

• Could you add a section for people from Cagayan(i.e. Ivatan, Ibanag, etc.). I feel neither the Ilocanos nor the Igorots represents them well, I mean they're minorities in the north but their culture has been Chrstianized for a long time. Besides, the are included separately in the 1903 census so they deserve to exist. Also, I've noticed that Chabacano is on the map but it has no ethnic group so what ethnic group do they belong to? Just curious. --23prootie 01:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Chavacano is an ethnic group? Really?! --Howard the Duck 02:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    • If it is not an ethnic group then where do they go?--23prootie 03:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Then they don't belong here. Perhaps on Languages of the Philippines? --Howard the Duck 03:30, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
        • But it is a native linguistic group and the language has a shared history, so does that count?--23prootie 03:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
          • That's why I asked if Chabacano is an ethnic group. if they're not, then they don't belong here. If they are, they should be included. --Howard the Duck 03:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
            • Well, since this article defines an ethnic group by langauge communtiy, then it must be.--23prootie 03:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I have been planning to put an intro to the ethnic groups section. I think the article has to explain why this division was used. I think it should also be explained that some ethnic groups would not fall under the ethnic groupings that have a subsection here. A example is the Chavacano group. The Chavacanos in Zamboanga are probably mostly of Visayan descent and the Chavacanos of Cavite are probably of Tagalog descent, but they probably don't consider themselves Tagalog or Visayan. Another is the Ivatan. They are lowlanders and they are Christian, so they don't really belong to the tribal section. But if we make a subsection for them we have to make a similar subsection for minorities of similar sizes, and the article would probably go beyond the size guidelines. Perhaps we could point these exeptions out in the intro.--Nino Gonzales 04:42, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

How about setting up a new page for the small minorities? --Howard the Duck 04:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Individual articles would also be nice.--Nino Gonzales 04:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Individual articles are better. Lets just use the templates and categories to keep them connected. --Howard the Duck 04:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent survey

Please provide more info about the 'recent survey'--Jondel 06:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures in the ethnic groups section

Are they even necessary? Or the more important question is are they fairly used? As stated in the counterexample:

An image of a Barry Bonds baseball card, to illustrate the article on Barry Bonds. A sports card image is a legitimate fair use if it is used only to illustrate the article (or an article section) whose topic is the card itself; see the Honus Wagner article.

So the Kris Aquino image, as well as all images except those with a free license are not fairly used, because this article is not about Kris Aquino, or even about her television program (apply the example to everybody else). What we can do here is to link them to a famous person such as 'Famous Chinese people are..." or "famous Spanish mestizo are..." Also isn't it ironic that the Bisaya and the Tagalog, the two most dominant ethnic groups only have one pic, while the Chinese have two? --Howard the Duck 03:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC) P.S. The Demographics of the United States article, has maps and graphs, instead of pictures. Instead of adding pics and collages, what we need to do is to create graphs and maps, that is if we can find resources. --Howard the Duck 03:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, the Tagalogs and Visayans have their own map :)

Perhaps pedagogical and aesthetic considerations are also important, aside from legal ones. I, for one, would like to know how members of a certain ethnic group would look like. And I admit that my first consideration in selecting a picture is whether it looks good. It's good you are here to scrutinize the legal aspect.

Maybe you could suggest alternatives to the pictures, if they are not compliant to some rules...--Nino Gonzales 14:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This collage

This is freely licensed. Any objections if we use this? --Howard the Duck 06:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

If you could suggest sources of pictures we agreed upon in Talk:Ethnic groups in the Philippines/Pictures, plus some placeholders for the undecided pictures, I could make a new collage.--Nino Gonzales 14:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] question

how come Spanish didn't become a lanmguage of the Philipines as it did in Latin America? Also how come the Spanish were not sucesfull at mixing in with the people as they were in Latin Amereica supposedly. There are, I suppose a fair amount of Spanish Mestizos in the Philipines. The thing is some or many Flipinos look or resemble Hispanics. I being one of them, people have taught or even considred that I was some kind of Asian and some kind of Spanish. My parents came from the Plipines and came here to America and I was born here. Please answer my question. Please no raceism or prejudice, and no kind of pride or patriot stuff. I jusst want a answer not a opnion. *I think a article should be made why none of this was possible in the Philipines but was sucsessful in Latin America.

I dunno, but maybe the Filipino Mestizos article might help you. --Howard the Duck 02:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC) Edited on 09:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Because the Spanish refused the natives education (though there was a royal edict to teach the natives Spanish). The reason why many Filipinos and Hispanics look alike is because many Filipinos (particularly) that in Luzon, have Spanish blood. In the 1818 census, it has been shown that the population of Luzon is 59% Pure Filipino, 35% Filipino-Spanish, 3%Chinese, and approx. 1% each for South American and Spanish (see Demographics of the Philippines article), so this indicates that the Spanish have been somewhat successful in creolizing the Luzon people. However, many object to this information source - they continue to subscribe to the fact that there has been minimal, or no European introgression in the Philippines. Generally (in Manila), the faces of the Filipinos show some similarity to Hispanics than to the Taiwanese aborigines (their cloest relatives) or to the Malays (OK, just my observation) -- User:Matthewprc 17:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: ok, if there was royal edict why didn't happen? And that still dosen't answer why Spanish as a language of the Philipines didn't become sucessful but was sucessful in Latin America?

It seems the large-scale migration from Spain that happened in Latin America never happened in the Philippines. This is probably because of economic reasons: remember, the Philippine colony depended on Mexican silver for its upkeep, until, perhaps, the Tobacco Monopoly. If you were given a choice where you would want to migrate, you’d probably choose the one that has more economic opportunities. There were some, of course, but clearly not as much as Latin American countries like Mexico.

Another factor is perhaps the objectives of the Spaniards for the Philippine colony. You would many times see this summarized by scholars as “God, gold and glory.” So teaching Spanish wasn’t really one of their goals. They were successful, it seems, with goal #1: 83% of Filipinos are Catholic. They were not very successful, it seems, with #2 and #3.

The friars are usually blamed for not teaching Filipinos Spanish. But this is like blaming math teachers for not teaching literature. And they DID teach Spanish—however, this was only limited to a minority of the population: the Illustrados—the folks that were able to get some formal education. The friars are also usually criticized for the policy of teaching the Catechism in native languages like Cebuano, Bikol or Tagalog. But it seems this is quite logical: it seems a lot easier to learn a people’s language and evangelize in their language vs teaching a people YOUR language so that you could evangelize with your native tongue. If you look at the history of the Church, you probably won’t find a missionary who evangelized a people who speak a different language using his mother-tongue.

The final blow came with the Americans. They were quite efficient, it seems, with mass education. The American colonization also brought with it a strengthening of economic and cultural ties between the US and the Phil, while weakening that of Spain and Phil.--Nino Gonzales 05:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but with all do respect I don't think I'm getting a straight answer here. With respect I just keep geting answers thrown and gueses thrown. Spain had a vast empire why have one part of their empire speak the Mother tounge and the othere dosen't? Again why isn't there a vast amount of Spanish Mestizos in the Philipines as there is in Latin America? All I just want to know is history.

Let me quote Benedict Anderson. He has a nationalist and an anti-clerical bent, but he's a generally well regarded scholar, especially by Filipino scholars:

By the time the Spanish arrived to conquer, in the 1560s, the empire of Felipe II had reached its peak, and the islands, named after him, were the last major imperial acquisition. Iberian energies were absorbed in Europe and the Americas. The few Spaniards who did travel on to the Philippines found little on the spot to satiate their avarice. The one substantial source of rapid wealth lay not in mines but in commerce with Imperial China. Manila quickly became the entrepôt for the ‘galleon trade’, by which Chinese silks and porcelains were exchanged for Mexican silver, to be resold, at colossal profit, across the Pacific and eventually in Europe. It was not a business that required much acumen or industry; one needed merely to be in Manila, to have the right political connections, and to work out relationships with the Chinese traders and artisans who flocked to the entrepôt. [7]

The absence of mines, and, until much later, of hacienda-based commercial agriculture, meant not only a concentration of the Spanish in the Manila area, but the lack of any sustained interest in massive exploitation of the indigenous (or imported) populations as a labour force. At the same time, the fact that the pre-Hispanic Philippines (in contrast to Burma, Siam, Cambodia, Vietnam or Java) lacked any states with substantial military or bureaucratic power meant that relatively little force was required for the initial conquest and for its subsequent consolidation. Small garrisons, scattered here and there, generally sufficed. [8] Hence, in the provinces, to a degree unparalleled anywhere in the Americas except Paraguay, Spanish power in the Philippines was mediated through the Church.

The ardently Counter-Reformation clerics were fortunate in finding the great bulk of the indigenous population to be ‘animists’. Buddhism and Hinduism had not reached so far. And though Islam was sweeping in from what today is Indonesia, it had consolidated itself only in parts of Mindanao and adjacent southern islands. There it could be contained, if never subdued. [9] Meanwhile a vast proselytization was launched which has resulted in the contemporary Philippines being 90 per cent Christian. [10] (Only in twentieth-century Korea has Christianization in Asia been comparably successful.) The most noteworthy feature of this campaign was that it was conducted, most arduously, not through the medium of Spanish, but through the dozens of local languages. Till the very end of the Spanish regime no more than 5 per cent of the local population had any facility with the colonial language. Spanish never became a pervasive lingua franca, as it did in the Americas, with the result that, certainly in 1900, and to a lesser extent even today, the peasants and fishermen in different parts of the archipelago could not communicate with one another: only their rulers had a common archipelago-wide speech.

This is from "Cacique Democracy in the Philippines: Origins and Dreams" I hope this helps you...--Nino Gonzales 01:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I saw a book yesterday in Powerbooks that studies how the Illustrados during the revolution saw in the Spanish language a source of unity for Filipinos (the Philippines has more than 160 languages and dialects according to SIL) This is of course unacceptable to the Americans. So if the Americans did not invade the Philippines, and the Illustrado leaders had their way, perhaps Spanish, instead of English, would have been the business and education lingua franca in the Philippines the past few decades. I'll get the title of the book the next time I pass by Powerbooks. --Nino Gonzales 02:17, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Yes I understant that if the Americans didn't invade the country instead of English it would be Spanish yes I understand that but does that mean people would speak Spanish personally with family and friends

instead of Tagalog? Please answer..

Even now, most Filipinos speak their respective native languages at home instead of English. We luv our mother tongues :) You might want to read this article and its talk page. There's a very long discussion about why Spanish did not become a popular language in the Phil: Spanish in the Philippines--Nino Gonzales 04:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

But I'm asking why aren't Filipino people speaking Spanish as a Native language that they would speak personaly with family, friends, at work, and in public as they do in Latin America. When people suggest that the Spanish supressed the language on the Natives or whatever that dosen't make sense. They didn't do that in Latin America so why would they do it in the Phlipines. I understand the part about the US part of the story. That does not answer the question why arn't they speakning Spanish as a native tounge as it is in Latin America and English is in the US. I mean why Taglog instead of Spanish? How was this Taglog language developed? I just want to get the facts straight and now the truth not just personal opnions on history. If Spanish instead of Taglog was spoken today do you think the Philipines would be diffrent or the same? This could be copy and pasted into the Article talk page "Spanish in the Phlipines" with my premission.

Again why aren't there a great amount of Spanish Mestizos and/or full blooded Spaniards in the Phlipines as there is in Latin America. People have said it was because there wasn't any work in the Phlipines as there was in Latin America. What about the silk? Could it not be a great place to trade silk with the Chinese in there Spanish colony the Philipines. Well they say it was hard to get there. How? they did get there obviously. So how hard is it to get there again? Again why so many Spanish Mestizos and full blooded Spaniards in Latin America and not so many in the Phlipines. There is a fair amount of Filipinos who look or even are mistaken for Latinos. Even though Filipinos who have Spanish surnames does not always nessiarly mean they are of Spanish orgin. But surnames that were not given to familes by the Spanish and surnames not taken by the Family means they have Spanish orgin.

This is not the place for this. You may want to go to Talk:Spanish in the Philippines. You'll get more concrete answers there than here. --Howard the Duck 01:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

But this does:..... Again why aren't there a great amount of Spanish Mestizos and/or full blooded Spaniards in the Phlipines as there is in Latin America. People have said it was because there wasn't any work in the Phlipines as there was in Latin America. What about the silk? Could it not be a great place to trade silk with the Chinese in there Spanish colony the Philipines. Well they say it was hard to get there. How? they did get there obviously. So how hard is it to get there again? Again why so many Spanish Mestizos and full blooded Spaniards in Latin America and not so many in the Phlipines. There is a fair amount of Filipinos who look or even are mistaken for Latinos. Even though Filipinos who have Spanish surnames does not always nessiarly mean they are of Spanish orgin. But surnames that were not given to familes by the Spanish and surnames not taken by the Family means they have Spanish orgin.

Again, go to Talk:Spaniards in the Philippines. --Howard the Duck 03:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Exuse me sir this is the place to talk about it because it has to do with ethnicity so please check what you have been talking about....

Again, due to the distubance of "howard the duck" please answer my question.. why aren't there a great amount of Spanish Mestizos and/or full blooded Spaniards in the Phlipines as there is in Latin America. People have said it was because there wasn't any work in the Phlipines as there was in Latin America. What about the silk? Could it not be a great place to trade silk with the Chinese in there Spanish colony the Philipines. Well they say it was hard to get there. How? they did get there obviously. So how hard is it to get there again? Again why so many Spanish Mestizos and full blooded Spaniards in Latin America and not so many in the Phlipines. There is a fair amount of Filipinos who look or even are mistaken for Latinos. Even though Filipinos who have Spanish surnames does not always nessiarly mean they are of Spanish orgin. But surnames that were not given to familes by the Spanish and surnames not taken by the Family means they have Spanish orgin.

The redirection is really more of letting you read the previous conversations about exactly the same topic. Have you tried reading Talk:Spanish in the Philippines? You will get to read several viewpoints about this. Yes, there was some commercial opportunities in the Philippines, and Spaniards have migrated to the Philippines. Many of their mestizo descendants are still in the country. E.g., the Ayalas, Aboitizes, Otigases,the hacienderos of Iloilo, Bacolod and Leyte (and many other lesser known families). It is also clear that the opportunities were not as many or as lucrative as that of Latin America. In consequence, I think, there were migrations, but not as many as to Latin America.--Nino Gonzales 00:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed countless times before. Better check out the archive pages of those discussion pages. There's a wealth of information there (more than those found at the article per se). We should be incorporating those at the articles, don't you think? --Howard the Duck 02:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnam or Cambodia?

"Around 900 CE, extensive trade had brought a people called Orang Dampuan from Champa (in present-day Cambodia) to the Sulu Archipelago where they have intermarried with the Buranuns, the original natives of Sulu. "

Can anyone explain such this quotation more explicit to me?The writer already based on which source to aver such commentary?Which region in present-day Cambodia used to be part of Champa ariund 900CE?

Thanks, --Redflowers 23:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arrangement

I don't think the arrangement based on size is the best way to go.

North to south is better. Then the ethnic groups which are dispersed throughout the country, like the Chinoys, Tisoys and Tribal groups... --Nino Gonzales 05:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I’ve been thinking about it, and you’ve got a point. What if, however, we just arranged them alphabetically? That way any claimed preferences (hopefully) wouldn’t show. —Lagalag 11:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I’m going to go ahead and try it out. —Lagalag 10:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bisaya as an ethnic group

This was added by an anonymous user:

No such "Bisaya Ethnic Group" Ethnic identity refers to the reality and the process through which people identify themselves and are identified by others as members of a specific ethnic group. Ethnic solidarity refers to the sense and degree of cohesion felt by members of an ethnic group. Levinson (1998) There are numerous factors that decides an ethnic group, such as linguistic, cultural, economic, and political factors. These factors have different roles with varying degrees of weight in deciding what an ethnic group is and who the members are. The three major groups, Cebuano, Hiligaynon, Warays, (pre-colonial times) did not share common political, economic, linguistic factors, etc., nor were there shared ethnic identity among them, or a sense of and degree of cohesion among these three groups or ethnic solidarity. Thus these groups could not be a single ethnic group. The Cebuano Group for instance was headed by a Cebuano Raja, with several Datus under him spread throughout Cebuano speaking areas, sovereign and independent of the Warays, Hiligaynons, just like the Tagalog Group, Bicolano Group, Ilocano Group, etc. Predominantly Cebuano-speaking regions in the Philippines. Predominantly Cebuano-speaking regions in the Philippines. Tagalog in the North; Bisaya in the South. Historically, Philippine regional cultural traits have been described with the dichotomy of “Tagalog” in the north and “Bisaya” in the south from the Spanish colonial period. Eric C. Casino, The Filipino Nation, The Philippines: Lands, and Peoples, A Cultural Geography (1982, Manila: Grolier International). As a result in the past many people from Luzon simply label people from the south as Bisaya, while those in the south label those from the north as Tagalogs. The traditional dominance of the Cebuano Group in Central Philippines (who associate themselves with the term Bisaya/Binisaya ) have led to a misinformed inaccurate generalization or idea that all ethnic groups in the region belong to Bisaya, a multilinguistic ethnic group. Thus, the group of islands in Central Philippines today is called the Visayas. Moreover, the north-­south ethnic dichotomy created a stereotypical image towards all low-land christian peoples of Central and Southern Philippines as belonging to the said Bisaya ethnic group. Hiligaynon and Warays speak a language of the Visayas, but they do not identify themselves with the Cebuano Bisaya/Binisaya. To Hiligaynon (Ilonggo) and Waray, Bisaya refer to geography (Visayas). Cebuano-speakers in Cebu refer to their language as Bisaya/Binisaya or Cebuano. While Cebuano-speakers from mindanao and all other islands (except Cebu) may refer to whatever their Cebuano dialect is, e.g. Boholano (a Cebuano dialect), to clarify that they are not from Cebu, but that they do speak Cebuano. Others though may choose to refer theirs as Cebuano or Bisaya/Binisaya. Ethnic Groups of the Philippines - National Commission for Culture and the Arts (Manila) http://www.ncca.gov.ph/about_cultarts/glimpses.php?bk_Id=1 There are 12 Ethnic Groups in the Visayas. No such Bisaya/Binisaya Multi-Linguistic Ethnic Group. Only the Cebuano(Bisaya/Binisaya) Group. Over all the Philippines have eight (8) major ethno-linguistic groups, they are the Tagalog Group, Kampampangan Group, Pangasinan Group, Cebuano Group, Waray-Waray Group, Hiligaynon/Ilonggo Group, Bicolano Group, and Ilocano Group. To the wiki-keepers, please correct and update this page.

In summary, he is saying that the Bisaya should not be considered an ethnic group because:

• In prehistoric times, they did not share a shared identity feel a sense of cohesion
• The origin of the term was usage of Bisaya to mean people of the Philippine south
• Only the Cebuano speakers of Cebu use Bisaya to refer to their language
• The Philippine government (specifically its commission on culture) says so

Here's my take:

• Sense of cohesion: he probably deduced this from the accounts that tribes were warring against each other. But the Cebuano speakers were warring againts themselves. Does that mean that Cebuano should not be considered an ethnic group?
• It seems that people of the Visayas were calling themselves Bisaya before the 1521... the oldest source, it seems, is Padre de Alcina's Historia de las Islas y Indios de Bisaya...
• It seems non-Cebuano speakers also refer to themselves as Bisaya and their language as Binisaya

I'll just quote Chris Sundita, a linguist and Wikipedian:

Ilonggos, Warays, etc. have always been called Visayans. There are plenty of verified sources for this. I have a copy of 1977 work by an American linguist who specializes in Visayan languages (and is fluent in Aklanon and Tagalog) by Dr. R. David Zorc. He lists 36 known Visayan tongues as well as their alternate names. For Hiligaynon, he lists only Ilonggo. However the three varieties of Waray-Waray all have Binisaya as an alternate name. Other groups that he lists as having Binisaya as an alternate name are Alcantaranon, Bantayan Visayan, Guimarasnon (this refers to 'both Hiligaynon and Kinaray-a!), the Cantilan dialect of Surigaonon, Kawayan Visayan (Negros Occidental), Masbateño, Naturalis dialect of Surigaonon, Pandan dialect of Kinaray-a, Semirara Visayan, Santa Teresa Visayan (of Brgy. Sta. Teresa, Magsaysay, Occ. Mindoro), Romblomanon, and the Jaun-Jaun dialect of Surigaonon. It would not surprise me that Binisaya would also refer to languages NOT listed by Dr. Zorc. Also, in the 2001 work Facts about the World's Languages Dr. Zorc writes in the Hiligaynon article:

The name Visayan was the Spanish rendition of the adjective bisayá’ referring to a person or item from the central Philippine islands and the verb binisayá’ meaning ‘to speak Bisayan.’ It applies to 36 different speech varieties, the most well-known of which include Cebuano, Waray, Hiligaynon, and Aklanon. Together, these groups represent over 40% of the Philippine population, almost double that of any other language in the archipelago.

I hope this helps. --Chris S. 03:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• The Philippine government says so--this is the worst reason of the four

--Nino Gonzales 06:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)