User talk:Euganeo
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[edit] Discussion with [|Evergreen Montenegro1]]
Deleted my comments Evergreen Montenegro1 02:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Evergreen, your posts and arguments are ridiculous. I have warned you about your vandalism on numerous occasions. I have attempted to be as civil in the whole matter as humanly possible. You have not carefully read any of my posts otherwise you would notice that I have presented all the evidence in an objective manner. You have accused me of the same issues I have accused you of. Your tactics in mimicking my accusations against you are childish. I do not only believe "what I have been told" since I am an academic who has studied this particular topic (among many others) as part of my profession. Talking with you is pointless and a waste of everyone's time.
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- You have claimed that you are going to leave the Wikipedia on numerous occasions but you keep returning everytime. Once a vandal, always a vandal.
- Euganeo 22:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
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- You can't, what'll happen is that people will keep correcting it and adding "unsigned" notices on it. Just try to login. It's not that hard, follow all the prompts. There shouldn't be any problem with you. So there shouldn't be any difficulties with the IP at all. Just put four of these "~" whenever you post, don't worry about the IP showing, everyone already knows your IP and where you're logging in from. It's not the nicest thing because everyone can identify you.
- Try registering again. Follow the prompts slowly and perhaps try to call yourself "Evergreen1" for example or "Evergreen2006" something like that. Perhaps it's because that login is already taken.
- See if that helps. Euganeo 23:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
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- STOP DELETING MY POSTS!!!!
- Why did you just delete all the posts here on MY discussion page??? You are doing this all over again. You can't just go around deleting people's discussion pages. I have reported you to Wiki Admin and your actions are under investigation. Stop deleting my posts!
- Euganeo 01:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Leave everything as it is. If you delete ONE MORE post or if you modify ONE MORE post you can get into trouble!!! Stop deleting posts! Everyone knows who you are and where you are posting from! Are you crazy? You are going to get yourself in trouble. You just went to an Admin User's page and you vandalised his discussion page!!!! Why would you do that? You can get into trouble and get blocked. Stop vandalising. Just leave everything as it is!! Stop vandalising everyone's posts Euganeo 01:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- It doesnt matter, because other Users are going to post your "unsigned" IP address because you haven't registered properly. They'll keep doing it for as long as you keep deleting it. It's Wiki policy so no matter what, you are meant to sign your posts properly. Even if you try to delete the IP address it won't matter because in the History people can always see your IP address. If you stop vandalising then you won't get into as much trouble. Just stop vandalising. Euganeo 01:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I don't understand... why would I need your email? You could have given it to me yourself. I don't see why me having your email is going to change anything. You have to stop vandalising. Just try to register properly yourself. The only reason why everyone knows who you are and where you work is because you have not registered properly and your IP address is visible to anyone and everyone. The fact that you work at a particular company came up when someone mentioned that your IP address links to that company. STOP Vandalising. Either register properly or just leave Wikipedia alone. Euganeo 03:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- No. Euganeo 04:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- STOP Editing my posts!
- If you have signed in correctly all you have to do is put four "~" and you will sign as per Wiki instructions.
- Euganeo 05:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Perfect, so you have finally signed on. But you are still altering my edits! You shouldnt even change a single letter or number on a person's posts! Please stop vandalising and ruining the Talk:Marco Polo page. You can still be blocked and warned by the Wiki Admin if you keep vandalising that page or any other page. Just leave all the discussion comments as they are. What I will do is I will go into my edits and take off you IP number, okay? Please don't modify my edits. Because if you modify my edits or delete them, other Users can come in and revert your edits and you can get into trouble and get blocked etc.. and then you will blame me. So I am now going to edit my own posts and put in place your "Evergreen Montenegro1" username where it has your IP. But you can't take off my postings, those arguments and discussion have to stay there. If you look at all the warnings and comments you've received from Users such as Meni, DakotaKhan and so on, you'll see that they say the comments have to stay on Wikipedia. They can't be taken off.
- So I hope this is something that you can learn from. In future, you can't go around destroying people's discussions. Just learn to discuss things in a civil manner. Don't post essays cut and pasted from the internet.
- Rather, discuss things you have read on the internet and then post a link to the places you got them from!
- If you notice, in my large post, that was all my own work, it was not an essay but a major discussion, and all the way through it I made sure I put plenty links to back up my claims that people could follow.
- Also, these links were from reputable sources and not from dodgy sites created by people who are not academics.
- Please be aware of these things and be careful when you vandalise sites from your work IP address. It's not a very good idea and you could probably get into trouble at work.
- All the best,
- Euganeo 22:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- No problem, I've just deleted it from my discussion. See? See how much better this is? We can talk to each other in a civil manner now. Ok, well good luck with your trip and with the soccer. Enjoy your trip. Just remember how much effort all this took. Unfortunately all this discussion and arguments we have had must stay on Wiki. This is because other people need to read things and judge for themselves (they can search through the History etc). Now I suppose it is up to you to make sure that you try harder not to upset people or delete User's comments and so on. Remember the rules and regulations on the Wikipedia and make sure you uphold them. This way people will respect you and you will not encounter all these problems. I am going to spend the next few days just tidying up the Talk:Marco Polo page.
- I won't delete any of your posts or anything. What I will do is probably re-organise the order of the discussion. I might just shift all our comments into one big heading or into a few separate headings. But I won't alter any of our discussion (unless it is my comments or I am fixing up the links).
- When I have finished, I will post here on my discussion page to let you know. I will also post on your discussion page which is here: User_talk:Evergreen Montenegro1.
- As for the Talk:Marco Polo page, do you mind if I just move your comments into less headings and put some of them under two or three headings (for example: "Euganeo & Evergreen discussion) or something like that? I will not change a single part of your posts. This is what I will probably do to tidy up the page. I will clean up any areas where the division lines are not done properly or there are too many empty spaces etc.... Please respond here if you are happy with this. That way Admin can see that we are working together and agreeing with each other that you think this is a good idea. That way it also shows to Admin Users who warned you before, that you are trying to co-operate now.
- Perhaps if you could delete that essay you posted from the internet. Then if you want you can repost some comments of your own (as in actual things that you yourself have written), it doesnt have to be long and then provide just the link to those pages where you got the writing from. This is what you are meant to do on Wikipedia. So you could even for example say something like "On this topic, I have found so-and-so who says this about Marco Polo, see this link here..." etc.... Otherwise you will get a lot of flack from Admin Users about that essay you cut and pasted from the 'Net (which is against Wiki Policy).
- Good luck once again for your soccer teams. Euganeo 23:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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- No problem Evergreen Montenegro1. Good stuff, thank you for deleting those 1111's and so on. As with the essay's, I'll delete them for now, but I'll put in there a note specifically saying that you (Evergreen Montenegro1) have some links that you got the original essays from and that you authorised me to delete your post and replace them with links. What I'll do is I'll separate everything into headings as we've discussed. But I will make people aware that these links you've given me are not links I endorse because they are not created by academics. But I will leave them in there to show your point of view. I won't get around to doing this for a little while though.
- If you edit your own posts you shouldn't get into trouble. For example if you deleted your own essay it should be fine. But I know what you mean, your contributions are being monitored still (I think, am not sure) and you may get blocked. Either way I'll make a link to this discussion we're having here so people know that we've both okayed the changes.
- All the best, Euganeo 05:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Hello Evergreen,
- See, this is the sort of discussion that is more civil. As for the essays, it's better if you discuss (as you have here) your own points and provide links to these essays, as opposed to just posting the whole essay (which is against Wiki Policy and got you into trouble in the first place).
- I can understand why you have your point of view as I am sure you can understand mine. As with the origin theories, I must tell you though (as I have in my postings in the past) that as an academic in the field of Medieval studies including Venetian, Byzantine and so on, it was common for different ethnic groups to "Italianise" their surname. This depended on whether they were under the rule of the Venetians, Genoese, Pisans (or other Tuscans), Neapolitans (Amalfi maritime empire) and so on.
- However, there was also a phenomena whereby Italians from these empires altered their surnames to become similar to those in the places they inhabited or where their empires resided. In Croatia (& Istria), Greece, Albania, Corsica and many other places, some Italians had their names altered to appear Slavic, Greek or Corsican. This depended on a number of complex circumstances. In Greece, there are instances whereby some Italians converted to the Orthodox Church and Hellenised their names. Italians in the Slavic lands have been known to have changed their surnames. This also occurs in the reverse, whereby Corsicans, Greeks, Slavs or Albanians began to spell their surnames in an Italian manner or utilise the Italian orthography. In the instance of the Greek islands and the Venetian and Genovese republics that spread there, it was common for Greeks to alter their names to conform more with the Italian orthographic features when writing in Italian or a language other than Greek.
- This basically means that since the Greek alphabet differs in both pronunciation and orthography from that of the Latin/Roman script, it was necessary for Greeks within the Republic to write their names in an "Italian" way when preparing documents.
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- For example: Kalergis = Calergi; Foskolos = Foscolo or even the reverse Capodistria = Kapodistrias and so on; in Corsican we have Buonaparte in Italian, becoming the Corsican Bonaparte; Corsican includes one of the famous first "Italians" in Australia Giacomo Matra who was in-fact born to Corsican parents in the United States as Ghjacummu Magra in true Corsican patois. He subsequently discovered his family was descended from the Italian Matra family and altered his surname before coming to Australia. From that point he began to explore his Italian heritage further.
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- Historically speaking, it was common knowledge that many of the noble families who utilised various spellings of their surnames were from a particular part of the Republic. For example, the Kalergis clan were from Crete and were the highest ranking members of the Venetian nobility even though they were ethnic Greek and Orthodox in faith. The "Venetian nobility" only permitted for Catholic Venetians (who were born to parents originating in the Veneto and essentially Italian) but did make exceptions, particularly with the powerful Greek nobles and the relationship between the Venetian Republic and the Byzantine Empire. The Kalergis would have their names spelt as Calergi in the Italian documentation but it was always widely known that they were Cretan Greeks. At no time was it disputed that their identities had changed or that they had suddenly become "Italian" Venetians. This is the same for Croatians and other Slavs within the Republic.
- Many of these nobles from different areas would become citizens of the Republic of Venice, thereby making them "Venetian" by way of their citizenship (much like the "Venetian" Sephardic Jews from the Ghetto in Venice, essentially Jews who had fled the Spanish Inquisition and had sought refuge within the Republic of Venice). However, it was still known that these individuals were either Greek, or Croatian, or Albanian or Jewish for that matter.
- It was not simply a matter of ethnic Croatians or Greeks attempting to hide their ethnicity behind their Venetian citizenship. It was widely known where various people came from (such as in the instances of Vendramini Calergi from Crete, Markantonio Foskolos or Ugo Foscolo, Daniele Manin the Sephardic Jew or even Napolean Bonaparte being Corsican/Italian). However, in the cases of such famous people as Marco Polo and his family or Christopher Colombus and so on, these people were of such high-birth and merit that it would have been widely known had they been of some other ethnic extraction.
- With Christopher Colombus (Colombo) there are varying theories since he only ever nominated himself as being from the Republic of Genoa (which could be interpretted either as being from Genoa or some other place within the Republic, either in Italy or abroad (but does not necessarily discount that his parents were or weren't Italian). There is a theory that he could have been Greek or at least born on a Greek island to Italian parents. His mother was a famous and well-known woman from Genoa, who was most certainly Italian: Susanna Fontanarossa [1], from an Italian family in Genoa which can be traced back directly from her.
- This is what my point was earlier. The evidence that these pseudohistorical authors online have been posting and attempting to put forwards.
- Most of my colleagues and other academics in the field (both Croatian, Italian, English, American, Spanish, Ashkenazic Jewish and so on) agree that these articles you have read and sourced that Marco Polo could have been an ethnic "Slav" is both pseudohistorical and part of a nationalistic campaign by small elements of the Slavic community to appropriate another country's heritage for its own. I know many frustrated Croatian and Slovenian scholars who are aware of compatriots who are pushing these sorts of ideas.
- Take for example one of the most famous 18th Century patriots of the Veneto region in Italy. Daniele Manin. He was born in Venice, from a well known Venetian family. And he was Catholic. However, it was well known that his grandfather had converted to Catholicism and that the family still practised (and studied) both Judaism and Christianity. Daniele Manin was essentially a Sephardic Jew who was also a Catholic, studied both but was still well-known as having descended from Sephardic Jews who had fled the Iberian peninsula during the Spanish Inquisition and had sought refuge in the Ghetto of Venice. There is no cover-up by Italians, no conspiracy. The Veneto region both acknowledges and publicises the specific ethnic background of Daniele Manin and various other patriots of the region or of Italy who are not considered an Italian by ethnicity.
- Antonio Gramsci for example was born in Sardinia to an Italian mother and a Christian "Arbëreshë" Albanian father. This is widely known and accepted even though his surname has been Italianised.
- What is upsetting is when people such as Marco Polo are taken by other cultures who are essentially trying to assign him to their own ethnic group with very poor evidence, much of which is pseudohistorical anyway.
- Happy researching. But as I said earlier, be wary of some of the sources you find. Be wary of who and why someone may be writing something. The Wikipedia is for the dissemination and publishing of widely-accepted encyclopaedic information, not for pseudohistory.
- All the best,
- Euganeo 04:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
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- I think it is also very important to the Dalmatian/Croatian culture to find as many links as possible to identify as many famous individuals in history as possible to assign to their culture due to a problematic issue surrounding the Balkan identity crisis which has been perpetuating for centuries.
- Essentially, due to the issues surrounding the identification of individuals as either:
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- Croatian; or
- Slavic (and then Croatian); or
- Dalmatian (as opposed to Slavic and/or Croatian); or
- Istrian (as opposed to Slavic and/or Croatian and/or Dalmatian); or
- Dalmatian & Istrian as being Croatian and then Slavic
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- These problems have been recurring for a significant amount of time due to a number of mitigating factors. As a consequence, the successive generations of people who identify themselves as either Croatian, Dalmatian or Istrian (or any combination of the three, or indeed all three) find themselves in an identity crisis. In light of this, the result is usually that a number of empassioned people who attempt to subvert the status quo of academic research by injecting a number of pseudohistorical arguments to perpetuate a particular agenda-driven ideology for the purposes of resolving the identity crisis phenomena which as afflicted their sense of group or ethnic identification.
- These issues have been raised and discussed by a number of Slavic academics throughout the countries which comprised the Former Republic of Yugoslavia. Indeed, this same problem was and is evident by the current situation in Montenegro & Serbia, where by the former has annexed from the latter for a number of differing reasons of which I am sure you are well aware.
- My point was essentially that it is merely not good enough (or not academically sound enough) to point out that just because a particular surname happens to occur in Korcula does not prove and does not mean that the family involved must have been Korculan. As in the case of Marco Polo there is much more evidence to suggest that his family are of ethnic Italian extraction as has been widely accepted.
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- The so-called evidence which claims that Niccolò and Maffeo used Slavic versions of their names is very skant and not academically acceptible.
- The fact that there is a small number of people born on Korcula have the surname Polo or de Polo does not equate to proof that Marco Polo was not ethnically Italian.
- As I pointed out in my first major post, there is much more evidence and and much more proof that the Polo family and the occurences of the surname in Italy is at least 300 times larger than those on Korcula. There is not double the amount of Polo's in Italy than on Korcula, there is not 3 times the amout .... but 300 times the amount.
- If we were to base this on that evidence alone it clearly indicates that it is more likely that anyone born on Korcula with the surname Polo is more likely to have been from an Italian family which relocated to the island during the Republic of Venice.
- Furthermore, one of the most important parts of the purpose of populating these islands and cities within the realm of the Republic of Venice was that it was necessary to re-populate areas that had been largely de-populated by the preceeding peoples.
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- In this case, many Croatian/Dalmatian or Istrian cities had been de-populated by ethnic Slavs moving elsewhere or due to lack of resources the population depleted - what would happen was, the Venetian Republic would send nobles, workers and other peoples from within the Republic to re-populate these de-populated cities. Many of the peoples that moved to these cities on the Dalmatian coast were Italian. Others were Greek. In the case of Istria, there are a number of cities that had almost been completely de-populated to the point that there were no inhabitants save for the elderly. Greek nobles and workers from places such as Crete would be brought into re-populate the city. In these cases, the majority of descendants (reaching down until the present day) are in-fact descendants of Greeks.
- This is also the case with the Polo surname. The majority of people with this family name are originally Italian. It is much more likely that Korculans with this name are originally Italian as opposed to the other way around.
- Marco Polo was rarely, if ever, referred to as a Dalmatian, and when he was this was in the context of being an Italian noble who had settled or operated within the realm of the Venetian Republic in Dalmatia. Much of the so-called "evidence" has been skewed for a particular audience by these people (such as the Slavic Dr. Z. Filippi). Signing his name as Pol is no particularly strange occurence. Signatures took on various forms and particularly in the Venetian Republic whereby the shortening of words was common practice.
- In-fact I am currently proof-reading and editing a Venetian manuscript for a professor who has discovered a number of shortened words (as a sample, words such as "Ven" would be followed with a small "to" or "o" just above the "n" - this is usually a shortening for "Veneto" and was done to hasten the writing as scribbling out numerous manuscripts can be tedious, particularly for older folk in those times as only a handful of people could write correctly).
- Furthermore, "Pol" can also be a legitimate orthographic feature particular to a 15th/16th century variety of the Venetian dialect of Italian. It was quite common for the specific branch of the dialect of the Veneti (those from the Veneto region) who came from Venice to leave out the final vowel in words ending in -n, -l and -r (look up works by the 19th century scholar Boerio who wrote definitive editions on the Venetian dialects of earlier times).
- Venetian dialect: The dialect of the Veneti, known as Vèneto has at least 5 or sometimes 6 different branches. Dalmatian and Istrian are considered to have descended from a mixture of Vèneto and Furlan. The specific Istrian dialect located on the border between Italy and modern-day Slovenia is referred to as Bisaccio and is peculiar to that part of the world. As for the 5 major branches of the Vèneto dialect found within the Veneto region they include:
- 1. Venetian (from the islands of Venice as well as the most immediate coastal suburbs)
- 2. Padovano / Veronese / Vicentino (from Padova, Verona, Vicenza)
- 3. Trevigiano (from Treviso)
- 4. Polesino / Rovigotto (from the Polesine and Rovigo)
- 5. Feltrino / Bellunese (from Belluno, Feltre and northern Veneto)
- Of these, number 2 (Padovano / Veronese / Vicentino) is considered the largest and most common variety of the dialect. While Venetian is recognised as the dialect of the region's capital (Venice) but as having a number of different features to the mainland branches.
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- Venetian occasionally omits the alteration of labial consonants in words whereby the aforementioned feature preceeds a -p or similar consonant (eg. sempre = senpre in mainland dialect but does not change for Venetian in some cases)
- Venetian drops the final vowel in particular lexicons where it is preceeded by an -n, -l or -r (in the mainland and most common branch of the Vèneto dialect the dropping of the final vowel occurs predominantly in words where it is preceeded by an -n only! This means that in Venice it would be common practice to drop the final -o in the word Polo; Furlan on the other hand would drop the final vowel where it is preceeded by all the above consonants with the addition of -t)
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- There are a number of other factors which differentiate the Venetian branch of the Vèneto dialect from the mainland varieties and this extends well into the 15th century and perpetuates in various forms today.
- As for the widespread usage of Venetian during the time of the Republic of Venice, it was quite common for writers of manuscripts and official documentation to use Venetian. By the same token it was common for them to use Tuscan Italian or a mixture of Venetian and literary Tuscan. Amongst the colonies (such as the Greek islands, Dalmatia and so on) it was even more common for documents to be written in Venetian.
- As I pointed out earlier, it is necessary to consider all the facts. Basing your opinion on small points such as the spelling of a signature is not academically sound, because as you can see from my evidence above, it was in-fact very understandable that on occasion Marco Polo would have spelt his surname as Pol .... after all he was in-fact a Venetian citizen to say the least!
- Christopher Columbus: it is very peculiar that you ask whether his bones are at "San Lorenzo". The last time I was in Genova his bones were most certainly not there. In-fact I do not know where you got this idea from. According to a number of different people there are two popular tombs, one in Seville, in Spain and one in Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic. There have been claims of a so-called "Tomb of Columbus" in the Havana Cathedral from 1898.
- As far as I am aware, the preliminary data suggests that the bones from the Cathedral in Seville are more likely to be those of Christopher Columbus if we are to be sure that the remains of Hernandez Columbus (his apparent illegitimate descendant) are indeed the remains of the illegitimate offspring so that the DNA match can be agreed upon.
- DNA, however, is not a particularly reliable science in light of the fact that it has been discovered in numerous cases that genetic testing is not as accurate as what it once used to be. Simply "doing a DNA test" is not nearly good enough in ascertaining the identity of an individual or indeed of their ethnicity, as genomic research cannot accurately identify these elements.
- Euganeo 06:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Hi Eg
Hi There!!! I have deleted my old comments, hope you dont mind. Can you please delete your comments too???? That way this silly debate can be deleted once and for all.
I did visit Venice in 2006 very nice place....too many tourists hahaha Evergreen Montenegro1 02:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC) Please clean up Marco Polo discussion page as you promised...it still has Evergreen as a Vandel etc and our convo unrelated to marco polo...Evergreen Montenegro1 03:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalismi
Ciao Euganeo. L'utente Factanista sta vandalizzando in chiave filo croata, tutti i miei recenti edit. Guarda in particolare gli articoli su Marco Polo, Giovanni Luppis, Giorgio Orsini o Juraj Dalmatinac. Poiche' mi pare piu' esperto di me, ti chiedevo come si fa a conttattare il moderatore piu' adatto alla bisogna. Tale utente, col nick Finellack, e' stato protagonista sui NG di vari flames in salsa nazionalista, basta cercare in Google. Ti ringrazio.--Giovanni Giove 23:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
