Talk:Europanto

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Contents 1 Consequent discussion 2 Comments of Suspected Vandal 3 Europanto Wikipedia 4 the sample... 5 Category:User er

[edit] Consequent discussion

What do you think of the article before this series of IPs started to vandalise it? Morwen 22:43, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm assuming you're a fellow samideano - it wasn't great, but at least it looked like it belonged in an encyclopedia. - Kwekubo 22:46, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

eg this version

Yeah. Well, whilst the page is protected I'm not allowed to edit it - nor is anyone else. A shame, I know. Morwen 22:48, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

That one seems fine to me. Who locked the page? - Kwekubo 22:49, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

JamesDay, at my request. We just need to wait until the IPs get fed up really. Morwen 22:51, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough. --Kwekubo

• Europanto - vandalism by lots of different IPs, protection requested in IRC. I'll revisit in 24 hours or so and remove then, unless someone else wants to. Jamesday 21:09, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
  • The Europanto page in is old form, in my view, was a form of misinformation that discredits the whole Esperanto movement, which has also an own serious section in wikipedia. How could this page have been tolerated in the old form? Comparing a very serious movement that is older than 100 years and for which people died in Concentration Camps and Communist GULAGs with the provocative joke of an interpreter in Brussels is a scandal for itself, especially in regard of the almost defamating information on this planned language project, that is common in english language media, where Esperanto very often is used as equivalent for a structureless, primitive, lumped togheter form of speach. Please remove everything on this page that may humitiate Esperanstist and non-english speaking people - even if you see this as a form of british humour - other nations may see things in a very different form!
    • Would you please answer than just reverting.
      • Again - answer instead of reverting. There is no vandalism on this page in any form. So anser! and do not revert.

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Hi, I wrote the original version of this article, and I was pretty surprised to find Europanto protected. :-) So let's talk. Europanto /was/ made by a guy named Diego Marani, and there are some things he's said about his own creation.

I am an advocate of Esperanto, and I don't see how Europanto is any threat. I've also asked some Esperantists to have a look at the original text after I wrote it, and there were no objections. Clearly, I am not in the habit of writing articles to insult people. Let's work this out. Tell me what portions of the article were offensive and why they were.

Take a deep breath, and respond when you're ready. Remember, nearly everyone who edits this site wants the same thing: fair and accurate articles of a high quality. --cprompt 15:56, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Read Diego Marani and you may get an impression, why some people feel insulted by the joke Europanto.

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"Europanto started as a joke and it still is a joke. There's nothing to suggest Europanto for an international language". If it is true that Europanto is just a joke, why was it restored on Constructed language under "Intended for general human use" by cprompt? I doubt cprompt wants "fair and accurate articles of a high quality". (Anon)

It is a constructed language. Of the constructed languages listed, they are in the following categories:

• Intended for general human use
• Intended for machine assisted automatic translation purposes
• Non-verbal languages
• Languages designed for knowledge representation
• Languages of fictional worlds and peoples
• Language games

Which category would you prefer it be listed as?

On another note, please do not question my conviction to the goals of Wikipedia. We're talking about Europanto. We are not talking about you or me.

--cprompt 20:23, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

I am also an Esperantist, so mi ĝenerale samideanus kun vi (I would generally share the same ideals with you), but I see nothing offensive in the old version of the article that was referenced above. Wikipedia is a neutral independent encyclopaedia project, and one must never let one's personal opinions or viewpoints colour one's actions with regards to editing an article.

Going by the letter, Europanto is a constructed language project (or at least an experiment) intended for human use, and thus it is not possible to categorically state otherwise.

To the user at 62.158.226.126, or indeed to anyone who takes issue with this article - Taking this version of the page as a reference point from before the page's neutrality was brought into question, I suggest to you to calmly go through the old version and list here any individual lines or points that you see as unacceptable. We can then discuss those points and come to a consensus as to what should go in the article. Hopefully, we will be able to sort out the problems that anyone may have with this page. -- Kwekubo 23:57, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Now unprotected again. I'll look at this page and protect as appropriate if that's necessary. Sorry for the inconvenience - I hope it won't be needed again. Jamesday 01:09, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Pseudo-constructed language?. Constructed pseudo-language? I am willing to entertain a better term. -- Decumanus 01:20, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I liked "linguistic experiment". I also think the quote from Marani saying that he considers his language to be a joke is essential. Thoughts?

--cprompt 01:23, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I rewrote as "fictional language" based on a language database web site. Linguistic experiment is good too. Funny I didn't know anything about this until now, and didn't care. Perhaps our friend is Marani himself, pulling a clever reverse Troll :).Ni ne bezonas trollojn or something like that (been a while, forgive me). -- Decumanus 01:50, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Kia precize estas la problemo cxi tie? 'Europanto' estas amuza sxerco, nenio pli. Gxi tute ne ofendas min, sed mi ne certas, pro kio gxi meritas enciklopedigxon. (What's the problem here, exactly? 'Europanto's just a silly joke... I'm not offended by it, but I'm not entirely sure why it would be mentioned in an encyclopedia.) --Brion 01:35, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, why not? We have articles for Doublespeak and Pig Latin. It is a joke, and it seems to be a pretty popular judging from Google.

--cprompt 21:46, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Its famous enough the BBC wrote about it! Morwen 21:48, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)

Judging from Google Monica Lewinsky is tree time more important than the greatest mathematical genius of th 20th century, whose name is Ramanujan. 62.155.177.52 22:51, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

If everybody would know the difference between a serious planned language project and Marani's joke - no prob. The problem starts, when people treat "Europanto" as a project on the same level as Esperanto.

Some of the guys like Decumanus and cpromt, who seem to have no idea, what a planned language is, do so by giving it the merit to be mentioned in an encyclopedia. Since most english speakers lack any foreign language skills and thus have no idea how languages work, they could get the impression that Esperanto is the same what Europanto is: just a crude mix of different languages without rules, especially facing the fact that the word Esperanto in coloquial english has just that meaning. I invite Decumanus, cprompt and Morwen to have a closer look on what Esperanto is and what Europanto is. Take a step over the unseen fence, that the english language builds around you (and around each other monolingual of a widely understood language). Whith your language you have adopted a certain view of the world, that's around you, and seriuos learing an other language could open your eyes to a totally new and fascinating world. Did you know, that e.g. japanese has a totally diferent system to name colors which deply influences the way japanese (litterally) see the world. There is no green in japanese, only diferent tones of blue! Can you imagime, what it means to see a world without the concept of green but with a very wide range of types of blue? I don't dare to invite you to learn japanese, but every other language could do the same, if studied seriously.

Even if I'm outing my self as an esperantist, Esperanto is the easiest way to get out of a monolingually fenced world. In regard to me, it took many years to jump over the fence build around me by my mothertongue, which is a quite widely spoken language. Even a creole language with a limited vocabulary and a relatively simple grammar can open your mind A LOT. Learning Louisiana French Creole e.g. can do more to understand the history and society of the US than a thousend books, films, or even serious academic studies could ever do. (By the way, a creole language is a language of it's own right, a real serious language, and not a crude mix like Europanto).

I would accept your wonderful invitation, but you are slightly late. I began studying Esperanto in earnest in 1979, from Teach Yourself Esperanto (the original version, which was far superior to the current edition) checked out from my school library in the American Midwest. It was the fifth fourth language I had learned up to that point, and I found its rules simple and beautiful. Back in those days, it wasn't like now, with the Internet, and conversing with others was difficult in a small town, so I got rusty over the years, or else I would write to you in its beautiful structure and vocabulary. But thank you for inviting me, again. I appreciate it. I invite you to join Wikipedia, and the wonderful structure it has. Certainly Europanto is not worthy of the detail of Esperanto, which has a lot of coverage here. Your input in helping shape and expand the articles on Esperanto here would be highly appreciated. -- Decumanus 23:23, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Most English speakers" sounds to me like a sweeping generalisation. "Most English speakers" I know either would like to learn more about language, or who know plenty about it. I count among my good friends speakers of the following languages: German, French, Italian, Spanish, Punjabi, Klingon, Esperanto and Lojban, and I myself know substantial amounts about and in some twenty separate languages from all six continents. This is not targeted at Decumanus, by the way, but at the person who wrote the segment thereabove.

I do much work for Wikipedia, but not for the english Wikipedia anymore! I have devoted myself to help small langage communities to protect their languages from being swept away by the overwhelming power of the english language. Lousiana French Creole, Cymreag, Breton, and many others. I gave it up to write articles about languages, which are so rich and beatiful, but nobody here even care to correct the spelling or the grammar of these articles, I wrote here, even though very often there was much work behind it. Who cares about Berbice Dutch Creole, the only creole language, which enabled some devoted scientists to determine the original area, where the slaves, who spoke this now ectinct language, came from. Giving people back some of their history and dignity, who were mistreated for gererations is not a popular task. Instead (excuse me for naming it like this) english language imperialism is expanding even on a higher speed.I hope you did your language studies seriously, because unfortunately this is neccesary to get the above descibed reward. I'd apreciate it a lot, if you'd answer in one of the languages, you studied. Don't worry, if it is not Tamil or Nama, I'll manage to translate it or have it translated. 62.158.226.122 23:59, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I very much agree with you, about Lousiana Creole, for example. I knew a native speaker when I lived in Texas and I delighted in educing the vocabulary from her that she remembered from her childhood and figuring out what French word or phrase it was based on. I disagree with you about the "who cares" part. I think a lot of people care, and what you are doing is very noble and will be appreciated by many people now and in the future. -- Decumanus 00:07, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Esperanto is a planned language that was intended to be used by people, and it is being used by people. Our article even has an estimate of the number of speakers. Europanto is a planend language that was intended to be a joke. Our article had a quote, from the CREATOR of the Europanto saying that Europanto is a joke. I fail to see any problem. Our Esperanto article states that Esperanto is a widely used planned language, and our Europanto article stated that Europanto is a joke. You haven't yet told me what the problem with the article was in its original state. --cprompt 00:47, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Europanto is not an actual contructed language it is a FICTIONAL constructed language. The languages of Tolkien are constructed fictonal languages. Europanto in not an experiment, because it has no goal or there is nothing to be tested ist just a FUN. Therefore I'll revert it to te last version. Please tell me, what Tolkin's constructed fictional languages have in common with Europanto. Europanto is not an actual constructed language it is a fictional one to use it as a fun.

I actually agree with our friend here that "fictional constructed" is probably more correct than "constructed fictional". "Linguistic fun" just doesn't work, however. There is perhaps a better way of saying it. -- Decumanus 03:33, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"A linguistic jest" is the best I can think of. -- Decumanus 03:40, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Then please find an english word for "jeux", "pasatiempo", "gekheid", "Spielerei", "brincadeira", "scherzo" and so on.

Jest is ok!

---

Perhaps I use the word "fiction" differently, but I tend to think of "fictional" languages as being the languages used in words of fiction, as in Tolkein, or as in 1984 (Newspeak), or the Ultima series (Gargish), etc. Europanto may have had a novel written in it, but that doesn't make it a fictional language. What we CAN say about it is that it is a constructed language; just like if I sat down tonight and made my own constructed language. The fact that Marani made the language, no matter how haphazard it is, or how impractical, doesn't change the fact that it is a constructed language. We can describe the INTENT of the language though. The intent of the language was humor. Marani was trying to make a joke. Through that line of reasoning, I cannot see anything wrong with a sentence like "Europanto is a constructed language created by Diego Marani as a joke." --cprompt 04:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with your categorisation in light of this, but I will append (humorous) to the language name in Constructed language. Peace and Love Mr. Jones 12:29, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the listing on Constructed language to read

• Europanto (Intended as a joke by its creator)

I hope you'll agree I've tried to maintain the original spirit of your caveat.

--cprompt 16:43, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Comments of Suspected Vandal

The toleration of misinformation like on the Europanto page can only be seen as serious diffamation of serious projects like Esperanto. If pages like this some minutes ago will be tolerated, people will start to make "jokes" like that on a scale nobody can controle! If language diffamation is ok here, lets start to "inform" aBout the shitty phonetical vomiting called "English language" !!!

Who has the right to protect jokes made only to humilate language comunities?

If you don't want to see language defamation, please DON'T start doing it yourself, as this communicates to other readers that you are not serious about your goal. "Shitty phonetical vomiting" won't endear you to most speakers of English, and that includes me. While I prefer to speak languages other than English, it's not because of my dislike for that tongue, but because of my love for the others. Which language community were you claiming was humiliated by this article? I don't see one.

I'm sorry but through your resort to outright vandalism, you have (temporarily) forfeited the right to engage in discussion on this matter for the time being. Please bear this in mind before making further edits. -- Decumanus

Is complaining about bad jokes tolerated as valid information vandalism?

Isn't vandalim rather tolerating humiliating jokes, Dekumanus?

You can't censor information merely because you don't like it. Sorry. We would have blocked you already if you weren't continously shifting IPs. If you carry on like this, expect more investigations to be done on how to do that. Morwen 21:25, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

Your addition of Amerikopanto was vandalism. I shall not engage in any more discussion with you. -- Decumanus 21:27, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Maybe other adminitors care about this case! I don't cencorinformation, I just want humiliating misinformation to be removed! Bad enough I was tolerated for such along time even leading to false conclusions as in "Latino sine Flexione". Im not shifting IPs, this is because of a call by call system!

If Amerikopanto was vandalism what was Europanto? What is the diference between a discriminating joke, that is tolerated by Decumanus and vandalism!

Both links on the Europanto page lead to pages humiliating others than native English speakers. Why is this protected?

The point of view that Europanto is humiliating is an interesting one, and one that could be added to the article, appropriately attributed to a named advocate, preferably a recognised authority on linguistic matters. Could you provide an appropriate reference? Martin 22:32, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Good grief. This is madness - is the sort of writing in this article really what the authors consider Wikipedia-quality writing? Can someone neutralise the page if it must be locked? -- Kwekubo 22:39, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled with the current state of the article, but I think it would be kind of sneaky to rewrite the article and then lock it. It's best that we talk about how to change the article here, and hopefully we can then agree on the best wording. Martin makes a good point; let's attribute the POV to an authority. In fact, let's get a quote for a lot more aspects of the article. For example...

Marani created it in response to the perceived dominance of English, which has forced many non-native speakers to struggle with learning English as a second tongue.

If that's true, then there should be no problem locating a relevant quote.

--cprompt 16:43, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I put in that sentence. It was from here [1]. The "fictional" adjective I borrowed from here [2]. I'll let you guys sort this out from here.-- Decumanus 16:53, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Please cite that reference or remove it. I disagree with the term "fictional", as the language is not derived from fiction. Also, I take issue with:

Marani created it in response to the perceived dominance of English, which has forced many non-native speakers to struggle with learning English as a second tongue.

Was that really his intent in creating it? Because the article USED to have a quote saying he invented it as a joke, not as a solution to the difficulty and dominance of English. Since this article is now fairly hot, I am refraining from editing the article until someone addresses my comments. I am confident we can provide a factual article that is sensitive to all POVs. cprompt 02:15, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Funny, but I hope, this is nothing serious. It looks funny for the first time, but it would be rather sad, if some people having any serious concerns about Europanto. So I hope this remains an intellectual game for multilinguals, because this could be an other attack point for anti-Europe leaders ("These internationalist/socialists/(...Jews) are mixing our beautiful language, and are forcing us to learn this disgust, threating our identity, etc.!".) There est wirklich geen need pour that. :)

[edit] Europanto Wikipedia

I removed the NPOV notice, since the dispute seems to have been resolved a year ago.

Anyhow -- Does anyone think that there could be a Europanto wikipedia? I mean, Europanto has more active Internet-based users than Dzongkha, Hawaiian (and it's a shame that the Hawaiian wikipedia isn't larger, seeing that 'wikipedia' itself comes from a Hawaiian word), Klingon, or Volapük, and they all have Wikipedias...

ep.wikipedia.org, anyone? Almafeta 07:39, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

I will. Scott Gall 12:41, 2005 May 28 (UTC)

That'd be awesome! Did you get around to do anything about it yet? I couldn't find it in the list of wikipedias. -- Syzygy 14:15, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the sample...

can there be an english copy of the sample? would make it easier for those who's ability to understand English came in such a way that they have no experience of other European languages.

[edit] Category:User er

The text reads "Dieser gebrukeres parlent Europanto". The noun "gebrukeres" as well as the verb "parlent" look like plurals, whereas they should be singulars (like the demonstrative adjective). Apokrif 14:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)