Talk:Extermination Order

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Contents 1 Discussion 1.1 Assassination Attempt 1.2 Legality 1.3 Primary Source 1.4 POV and accuracy 2 Citations

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Assassination Attempt

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It was never proved that Orrin Porter Rockwell was ever connected with the assassination attempt on Governor Boggs. In fact, there is more evidence against the idea of Rockwell as the assassin then there is for it. The major source where I drew my conclusions from was...

• Richard Lloyd Dewey, Porter Rockwell: a Biography, Paramount Books, ISBN 0961602406 (1986; Hardcover, 13th edition, 2002).
• Numerous other sites and several Volumes of History of the Church that gave evidence for and against Rockwell.

My conclusion is that he is innocent, but since it is up for debate, that section of the article just needs to be re-written.
Potatosalad 23:28, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Legality

Despite the fact that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits making a "law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," General Boggs still enacted a law that was constitutinally illegal. The first Amendment protects the worshipping in any way they want, and also makes it illegal to make laws relative to one's religion. Madd the sane 17:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I watched "Utah, the Struggle for Statehood" last night on TV. It is a three-part series on the area that is now Utah, from when the Mormon pioneers arrived in 1847 until a few days after Utah obtained statehood on January 4, 1896. They covered three Supreme Court cases about 1890; all three were judged in the disfavor of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members. One of them upheld a law in Idaho that stripped Mormons of all of their rights of citizenship simply for their religious affiliation. If the Extermination Order would have made it to the Supreme Court of the time, I suspect that it would have also been upheld. Val42 02:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

True, but isn't the supreme court supposed to uphold the constitution and not undermine it? I'm sorry, I know I'm in a losing battle. --Madd the sane 03:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You'd think so. But the only check on the US Supreme Court is the US Congress. Since the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of the constitutionality of anything, if the Supreme Court makes a decision that is clearly "unconstitutional", is it really unconstitutional? If Congress does not remove those Supreme Court justices who voted for the "unconstitutional" decision, the decision will clearly stand. But what if Congress votes to remove the Supreme Court justices and they refuse to stand down, ruling that the "removal" was unconstituional? What we've been discussing (in our opinion) violates the constitution and Congress didn't act to remove the justices. The people of the time were behind (what we consider) the unconstituional acts of the Supreme Court and the failure to act by Congress. These were the circumstances of the time. Val42 03:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Primary Source

I found the scan of the original document in the CES manual online. If anyone can find a better way to get an image of the primary source, it would be a good resource in this article. It looks to me like the image fits public domain, because you can't copyright an image of someone else's work (i.e., the State of Missouri), and the original document is old enough. But if it makes anyone edgy, please find a better source! Jerekson 22:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV and accuracy

this is clearly a very one sided LDS version of events. I am intending to make some additions to the article to show historical context. In the meantime, more info is available at http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/legacy1.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ianerc (talk • contribs).

When adding a POV dispute, editors are supposed to be specific about which items they dispute. While I agree that more can be added of how the Mormon militia including the galatin voting skirmish, background on why the Mormons attacked in response to rapes and a burned cabin at the battle of crooked river, and Rigdon's July sermon using the term "extermination" as a response to the term being used in the secret constitution (it was actually the first document to use the work "extermination" at the time) could be added, I see nothing factually incorrect about the article at a quick read. Please be more specific, or the POV notification will be removed. Lack of content and POV are two seperate issues. -Visorstuff 16:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with another one sided view of this story. I mean, that's what everyone reads in their history books. The view portrayed in the history books is just as one sided, but no one has a problem with that. An example of this would be the fact that almost no history book found in any school classroom talks about "the examination order", or the mobs that sought out and killed many Mormons. Instead, they focus almost solely on the things like the "Mormon Battalion". If anyone is going to try to correct the one sided stories, it should be our one sided history books that we should target, not public online forums, which are far more accurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnnylingo (talk • contribs).

Overall I agree with Visorstuff. You'll have to be more specific because most the material in that link--the KSS failure and everything that happened post-Missouri, for example--doesn't seem related to the Order at all. Article doesn't look bad. Cool Hand Luke 23:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not notice anything that is blatantly obvious, but there are many statements that need to be referenced. As the article stands now, it needs work. Storm Rider ^(talk) 09:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Further, let us be diligent to ensure that the article is historically based and presents facts from both sides. The Tanner's reference from above can assist that we cover both sides. Frankly, history speaks for itself and to fear it removes reason; where reason is removed, faith is belittled. Storm Rider ^(talk) 10:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, only just got back to this. The POV of the article is that it implies that there was some unprovoked attack on a peaceful religious group. Which was not the case at the time. Additionally it makes allegations about 'rapes' and other atrocities that do not appear to have an historical basis.

Ian Erc

[edit] Citations

I added a citiation and reformatted existing ones to match in a new Notes section. I also added the text of the order itself. If this is too much then it could be removed, since relevant portions are quoted in the first paragraph, however, I do think that there is value in seeing the entire order with quoted sections in context rather than simply linking to an external site. Bochica 02:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)