Talk:`Abdu'l-Bahá

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Contents 1 Removed link 2 Order of succession 3 Nitram Photo edit - Please leave it 4 naming 5 His wife 6 Newspaper 7 "Sir" Abbas

[edit] Removed link

Replaced removed link, Baha'is all the time come in and like to do that, but is is a very frowned upon and also if the removal takes away an alternative view then it messes witht eh neautral pint of view that is required in wiki articles both of which can definately cause problems.

such "alternative" groups are very very small and are already mentioned in the main article, mentioning OBF everywhere is like mentioning "Potters of God" on every Chrstian related article - --Cyprus2k1 07:59, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

no, the comparison is not the same. Potters of God don't exist anymore. Orthodox Bahais still number in the thousands, which is approximately 0.1% of the Bahai community worldwide.-Mavaddat 01:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There's no evidence that the OBF has anything remotely resembling these numbers of adherents. And if it did manage thousands, then WP:Undue weight would still apply. MARussellPESE 06:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Again both groups share the belief in and history of Abdul-Baha and divide on the Will and Testament of the Master and both groups shold be listed. The fact thaqt one is smaller than the other is not relevant tot he neutral point of view or wiki rules of not erasing links, but if you want a erasier war then be prepared for the consequences.

[edit] Order of succession

As I understand it, Baha'u'llah's will stipulated that Abdu'l Baha succeed him, and gave him the title "Centre of the Covenant" (and lots of other high praise), and said that Muhammad Ali should succeed Abdu'l Baha as leader of the faith. After a lifetime of having to deal with Ali's attempts to undermine him, Abdu'l Baha appointed Shoghi Effendi instead, and instituted the whole idea of the Guardianship. About half of Abdu'l Baha's Will and Testament is devoted to justifying to the Baha'is why he had felt it necessary to change the succession.

Someone removed my comment "Relations between them had deteriorated to the point that...". Personally, I don't see why. If Ali was attempting to get Abdu'l Baha executed by telling tales on him to the Ottoman authorities, then it is clear that by then there had been a pretty comprehensive breakdown in relations between the half-brothers. Putting it this way offers no opinion on who was responsible for that breakdown - so I figure that's perfectly NPOV, but if people don't like having this linking phrase there then it doesn't bother me much. Putting in a sentence of special pleading for `Abdu'l Baha's side of the dispute doesn't seem NPOV to me, however, which is why I removed that sentence about AB repeatedly denying Ali's arguments. -- PaulHammond 13:02, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)

does "'Abdu'l-Bahá denied this, making assertions to His followers that He was not to be regarded as such." looks more NPOV? :) - --Cyprus2k1 17:47, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cyprus, you know, and I know that Muhammad's accusations against `Abdu'l-Baha were a load of rubbish. I know that, because the early American believers used to think that `Abdu'l-Baha, being the son of "The Father" (Baha'u'llah), was really the return of Christ - and Abdu'l Baha did repeatedly deny this, and refused to take any kind of worship from the more enthusiatic American Baha'is. I don't know whether Abdu'l Baha actually dignified Muhammad Ali's challenges with any kind of response - but I don't think it is the business of any encyclopedia article to come down on one side or the other of the controversy. I think we should report the fact that there was trouble between them, report the fact that Muhammad Ali tried to get his half-brother executed by telling tales about him to the Ottoman authorities, but that that effort failed, and that eventually AB was freed as a result of the Young Turks revolution causing a change in government in Palestine. Then, we can report the fact that Ali's efforts against him persuaded Abdu'l Baha that it was necessary to spend about half of his W&T talking about how Muhammad Ali had forfeited the right to be a Baha'i Leader due to his Covenant-Breaking, and that therefore Shoghi was going to be the Guardian instead.

I don't think that we should write anything here that could be accused of being, in Amir's words a "Baha'i promotional pamphlet" - and that is what I feel Brettz is attempting to do here.

btw - if Brettz reverts me again without even correcting his damn spelling mistake, or coming here to discuss things, I think I shall scream. PaulHammond 21:39, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

This falls far short of the spirit of consultation. I made comments as to why I had reverted, if you would read them in the page history. The onus is on you to respond to the points and not to just delete things.

It is not taking a side to state the facts. If the article refers to Muhammad Alí's accusations and then leaves it hanging, this is biased, in its implicit insinuation that He must have made such claims. It is at least incumbent to state that He did make such responses, as He is in fact on record as doing (it may even be in published newspapers of the time as He is recorded in Mahmúd's Diary of having told them this), or otherwise it gives the one-sided impression that Muhammad Ali must have been right. I can provide the exct citations if it will make a difference to you.

I think it is also far from necessary to be concerned with the manifest bias of other editors. Just because some of the articles may have been derived from promotional sources and admittedly should be changed in this environment does not mean that people trying to overcompensate and paint things in what they think and want to be as negative a light as possible (without offering a description of the official Bahá'í response to those insinuations), should be given a free hand to do so. User:Brettz9 09:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You didn't come to the talk page, Brettz. I put two paragraphs of explanation here, and tried to justify why I didn't think that my attempt at a linking from the fact of Ali's opposition, to the attempt to get Abdu'l Baha executed, to AB's being freed by the Young Turks was non-NPOV. From my point of view, I came here and tried to edit what was in that paragraph to an NPOV version. I stand by my comments about the succession - "could" rather than "should" understates what the expectations were. If Ali's succession to AB was not widely expected by the contemporary Baha'i community, then why was it that Abdu'l Baha's Will and Testament spent so much time justifying what a terrible Covenant Breaker Ali had been so that he could justify appointing Shoghi as his successor, instead of Ali as Baha'u'llah had said before he knew what a trouble maker Ali would turn out to be.

I don't take much issue with the "could"-"should" issue, actually. I agree that was the implication, I just thought that the Kitáb-i-'Ahd did not justify stating it in such unequivocal terms.

I believe that AB was fully justified in doing that. Discussion of whether the whole "Covenant Breaker" thing that arguably started with AB's W&T has cast a shadow over the whole Baha'i Faith since then is probably too deep and off topic for this article.

Well, Bahá'u'lláh had taken the action of excommunication earlier when Mírzá Yahyá had made the counter-claim to Bahá'u'lláh's public declaration.

Quite possibly, the mention of the problems with Ali doesn't belong in that particular section, and the whole article needs a bit of re-working. I'm willing to discuss all this with you - but not for a couple of weeks. Right now, I'm taking a break from editing Baha'i pages at all because my involvement in attempts to prevent vandalism of the main Baha'i articles by a couple of determined editors has taken its toll on my usual good humour. I've left a note on my user page about that if you're interested.

Such attacks can take a toll on all of us, for sure.

I apologise if you think my comments above are a bit OTT. Put it down to the strain I've been under on the other Baha'i articles. But, it seemed to me that what had happened here was that you had reverted me without bothering to address my comments here to put the article back exactly to your preferred version, even down to the original spelling mistake of "denied", and after what I've been dealing with on the other Baha'i articles, I formed the impression that you considered me some kind of Ali supporter whose comments were not worth considering, which made me react rather crossly. PaulHammond 15:55, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for not taking the time to examine the talk page carefully and transfer my comments in the notes here. I apologize also for jumping to any conclusions. If you do take some time off as you state at your page, hopefully you won't find the Dr. Who article beleagured by questions of non-NPOV personal attacks and insinuations about who was the best Dr. Who or the worst!  :) Brettz9 17:15, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nitram Photo edit - Please leave it

This is one of my two favorite photo's of Abdu'l Baha. Please leave it. It's one of only two I know of where he is smiling. Thanks Martin!!!! Rick Boatright 22:19, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] naming

Can we change the title to take away the dash? So... change the title from `Abdu'l-Bahá to `Abdu'l Bahá Cuñado - Talk 00:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe the Bahá'í usage is with the dash, see http://reference.bahai.org/en/ -- Jeff3000 00:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] His wife

I thought it was odd that his wife and children are not mentioned anywhere in the article, so I added a bit. But it would be more useful if someone could fill in the details better. Also maybe a new page just for his wife or something. Not sure how much detail exists on her. Wjhonson 23:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newspaper

There is a very long article by or about Abdul in the Washington Post about 1911/2. When I get a minute I'll try to transcibe it. [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wjhonson (talk • contribs) .

I can't get to the link, it goes to to a login screen. -- Jeff3000 16:54, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a subscription-based service. I think a few months ago we had a discussion on WP:RS or on WP:V about whether fee-based services could be cited, etc. But at any rate, this service provides actual photo-images of old newspaper pages, so I'd have to read it and transcribe it, which takes a while. The service itself is about $300 to $400 a year iirc. Wjhonson 01:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

What kind of copyright is related to those? I think they would be interesting. Would you be able to post the image as a reference? Cuñado - Talk 02:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Old newspapers are out-of-copyright, I think before 1922? Not sure on the exact year, but this one is. Not sure if I can post the image, but first I'm going to transcribe it.

The Washington Post, Washington, D.C. 12 Sep 1915, p 8 (image 40 of 68 on Ancestry Newspaper subscription service www.ancestry.com)

Abdul Baha To Mr. Carnegie On Theme Of Universal Peace "To his noble personage, his excellency, Mr. Andrew Carnegie:" "May God assist him! O thou illustrious soul! O thou the great pillar of the palace of universal peace. It was some time since I intended to correspond with thee, but there was no intermediary between us. Now that his excellancy Mr. Topakyan (consul general of Persia in New York) has made this possible through his kindly suggestion, I write thee this epistle; for truly I say thou art the lover of the world of humanity, and one of the founders of universal peace.

"Today the most great service to the kingdom of God is the promotion of the principle of the unification of mankind, and the establishment of universal peace. A number of souls who were doctrinaires and unpractical thinkers worked for the realization of this most exalted aim and good cause, but they were doomed to failure, save that lofty personage who has been and is still promoting the matter of international arbitration and general conciliation through deeds, words, self-sacrifice and the generous donation of wealth and property. Rest thou asured that through the confirmation of the Holy Spirit thou wilt become confirmed and assisted in the accomplishment of this most resplendent service and in this mortal world thou shalt lay the foundation of an immortal, everlasting edifice, and in the end thou wilt sit upon the throne of incorruptible glory In the kingdom of God.

Europe United on War "All the leaders and statesmen of Europe are thinking on the plane of war and the annihilation of the mansion of humanity, but thou art thinking on the plane of peace and love and the strengthening and reinforcement of the basis of the superstructure of the human world. They are the heralds of death, thou art the harbinger of life. The foundations of their palaces are unstable and wavering, and the tunnets of their mansions are tottering and crumbling, but the basis of thy structure is firm and unmovable.

"While I was journeying throughout America and Europe (1912) I cried before all the meetings, conventions and churches.

"O ye noble friends, The world of humanity is facing in the future a most portentious danger and supreme calamity. The continent of Europe has become like unto a gunpowder magazine and arsenal, under which are hidden combustible materials of the most inflammatory nature. Its combustion will be dependent upon the sudden and unexpected enkindlement of one tiny spark which shall envelop the whole earth with a world-wide conflagration, causing the total collapse of European civilization through the furious, wild, raging, fiery tongues of war. Therefore, O ye well-wishers of the world of humanity, endeavor by day and by night so that these inflammable materials may not come in touch with the burning fire of racial antipathy and hatred.

Oneness of Humanity "Today the life of mankind and its attainment to everlasting glory depend on its display of effort and exertion in accord with the principles of His Holiness Baha'o'llah: for his first and foremost teaching consists of the oneness of the world of humanity. He says: We are all the sheep of God. His Highness, the Almighty, is the real Shepherd and kind to all the sheep. Why, then, should we be unkind toward each other? Another of his most great institutes deals with the subject of universal peace, the establishment of which would be conducive to the well-being and progress and tranquility of the commonwealth of man.

"Other precepts of Baha'o'llah treat of the identity of the underlying foundations of the religions of God, the original oneness of the nations, the adoptions and general practice of a universal auxillary language and the inculcation of the ideal of cosmopolitanism and world patriotism among the children of men: consequently in future his teachings will act as a deterrent and preventive from the occurrence of the most great danger —i.e., universal war.

Most Important Service "Today the most important object of the kingdom of God is the promulgation of the cause of universal peace and the principle of the oneness of the world of humanity. Whosoever arises in the accomplishment of this presentment service the confirmation of the Holy Spirit will descend upon him. Now all that has been predicted has come to pass, and the lurid flames of this war have emblazoned the horizon of the east and the west, causing a reverberating social earthquake through the column of the earth. After this war the workers for the cause of universal peace will increase day by day, and the pacific party will array its force, displaying great activity with better advantage, and in the end gaining a permanent triumph and eternal victory over all the other parties. The realization of this matter is incontestable and irrefragible.

"Therefore, ere long a vast and unlimited field will be opened before your view for the display of your powers and energies. You must promote this glorious intention with the heavenly power and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. I am praying in thy behalf that thou mayest pitch a pavilion and unfurl a flag in the world of peace, love and eternal life.

"I beg you to accept the consideration of my highest and deepest respect.

"Abdul Baha Abbas

"Translated by Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, May 1, 1915. Home of Abdul Baha, Mount-Carmel, Haifa, Syria" END-OF-QUOTE

Wjhonson 02:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I've now posted the .png image here Wjhonson 03:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for posting it. -- Jeff3000 04:27, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Sir" Abbas

Anyone going to take issue with removing "Sir" at the beginning of the name. He never used the moniker, and the order and rank is unknown. MARussellPESE 19:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

He was knighted so he is "sir" Zazaban 22:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So? It's a title he never used and, if memory serves, actually disliked. No other published biography refers to him this way. Why should wikipedia? MARussellPESE 02:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with MARussellPESE. -- Jeff3000 02:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Why? He was knighted, and therefore his proper title is "Sir". I don't personally know whether or not he liked the title -- do you know where that might have been recorded? Either way, wouldn't it be more encyclopaedic to list him as "Sir", if that is his proper title? --Twilightsojourn 07:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen any book or encyclopedia use the word Sir in front of his name? -- Jeff3000 10:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

No, but granted, I haven't checked too extensively, I'm afraid. Either way, though, isn't it proper to include "Sir" (or KBE, I suppose) as a title for anyone who has been knighted? I thought it was simply standard to do so. If not, then we can make the decision accordingly. Why are you supporting the removal of the title, by the way? --Twilightsojourn 04:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I keep thinking of this reference:

"My name is Abdu'l-Bahá. My qualification is Abdu'l-Bahá. My reality is Abdu'l-Bahá. My praise is Abdu'l-Bahá... No name, no title, no mention, no commendation have I, nor will ever have, except Abdu'l-Bahá. This is my longing. This is my greatest yearning. This is my eternal life. This is my everlasting glory." (quoted in The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 139)

Although readers should bear in mind that this was in response to American believers asking if he (Abdu'l-Baha) was the second coming of Christ, and he was emphasizing that Baha'u'llah was, and he was the servant of Baha'u'llah. Cuñado - Talk 05:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you have a good point. However (and I hate to keep questioning this, especially given the quote above), would it still be more encyclopaedic to list him as "Sir"? If that became his proper name as of the moment of his knighting, then I think it would be.

I am aware, of course that this is a small point -- I am asking this so I can learn, as well, not just to be a nuisance within the context of this article (I'm worried that I may be coming across as splitting hairs over one word, where I am not only trying to seek a better understanding, as well as make Wikipedia the best it can be, even when it comes to potentially small details such as this). Thanks so much for continuing to think about and discuss this question with me! Take care, Twilightsojourn 05:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the word, plus more importantly no published source uses the word sir in front of the name. That is more than enough to not use it. -- Jeff3000 12:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Twighlightsojourn, you're making an interesting statement that I think deserves discussion: "If that [Sir Abbas] became his proper name as of the moment of his knighting …" Who says, exactly, that that's his proper name? The British Empire? If someone bestows a title on you does that mean you're stuck with it? Is it really a proper name?

To me, it's very significant that Baha'u'llah bestowed various titles on Abbas Effendi, but the one he chose for himself, 'Abdul-Baha, is the one he used exclusively, and the one generally used. I think "Sir Abbas" isn't a "name", but a title; and as such the holder has the right to decide to use it. `Abdul-Baha clearly chose to avoid using it. MARussellPESE 13:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a great point, MARussellPESE, and thanks for putting forth the question so well. I went and checked out the article concerning the Order of the British Empire, which is where any hyperlinks for honorary knighthood usually redirect. It doesn't specifically address this question (of "being stuck with" the title, as you put it), but instead describes when individuals are qualified to use it or not (whether or not they are citizens), and in what way ("Sir" or "Dame" versus "KBE" or "GBE" (affixing the letters to the end of one's name)). If one looks at the article for someone like Steven Spielberg, for example, one will notice that he is listed as "Steven Allen Spielberg, KBE", though interestingly, Bill Gates's article does not list him as such, despite him having received the title. Upon further inspection, it appears that there has been some extensive discussion regarding the issue (the first can be read here, and other examples can be seen in the other archives). One person wrote "According to British law, receiving the title "Knight of the British Empire" allows one to use the initials "KBE" after their name. It does not require one to use KBE any more than receiving a Ph.D. or M.D. requires one to use these initials. In certain situations, such as a research lab where everyone has a Ph.D., using Ph.D. with your name is looked upon as rather presumptuous. So to determine whether "KBE" is appropriate to be used with William T. Gates, we must not look to British law but what Bill Gates himself prefers. And in the Microsoft biography of Bill Gates, KBE is not used anywhere. So I don't think we should be using it in his name either.". I'm not sure where this person got this information, but if it is correct, then it would apply here, resulting in no "Sir" or "KBE" for `Abdu'l-Bahá. What do you all think? --Twilightsojourn 01:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Bingo! Thanks, Twilightsojourn. Well done. MARussellPESE 02:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)