Talk:Alien (film)

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Contents 1 Different alien species 2 Standing the test of time 3 Confusion 4 WikiProject 5 Ripley: "Military" or not? 6 Lovecraft 7 The Beast Within: The Making of 'Alien' 8 Egg origins in Alien 3 9 Userbox 10 Serial line 11 Spin offs 12 What network and when did Alien debut on TV? 13 Predator as a prequel?? 14 "It! The Terror From Beyond Space" deserves mention 15 HR Giger's inspired from a fish! 16 Influence Section 17 Feature films within the same storyline 18 The plot section seems insanely long to me 19 Redundant Plot Summaries 20 Tagline 21 Precursor work POV 22 Space Jocky, or Alien? 23 Influence 24 Feature this! 25 Trivia 26 Ref problem 27 Template/infopanel 28 Category:Aliens characters 29 Related-entries requiring attention 30 Long plot section 31 OR 32 Themes 33 Special Features 34 Removed trivia section. 35 "Along with launching the career of actress Sigourney Weaver, the film proved to be pioneering as it was the first action film to feature a strong female heroine." 36 Stylistic reversions by Dark Kubrick 37 Cast section 38 GA nomination on hold 39 Failed GA nomination 40 Giger's Alien

[edit] Different alien species

Regarding the following sentence from the article:

The alien embryo is discovered in a ruined pyramid on an alien planet; this concept was actually held onto for a long time, and preliminary H.R. Giger pyramid drawings intended for Alien exist, but eventually the producers went with the idea of a wrecked derelict (also designed by Giger, even though the ship was supposed to be that of a different alien species).

What is meant here by "different alien species"? It is my understanding that the derelict was built by a different species than the "aliens", that it was infested with the aliens, and its crew was defeated by them. One of their corpses is seen by the humans as they first begin to explore the derelict. The above passage is very ambiguous, but I suppose you could interpret it to mean that the derelict was built and piloted by the aliens, but that is not the case. In other words, it makes little sense to say that the ship was supposed to be that of a different species, when it was in fact that of a different species. --Yath 20:50, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Since no one has explained this, and I think it's just confusing, I removed the text from the article: (even though the ship was supposed to be that of a different alien species). --Yath 03:55, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think what was meant by that was that initially, there were meant to be two seperate alien cultures in the film: the alien on the ship, which was from an advanced, spacefaring civilisation, and the aliens who built the pyramid and worshipped the Aliens, who were a primitive, Bronze-Age level society. The bronze-age Alien-worshippers were subsequently dropped. 82.35.49.147 11:27, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

To be a bit more specific, the "chair like thing" is a member of the "Space Jockey" race.

-Joel

--- 15 September 2005 --- 15:10 EST ---

[edit] Standing the test of time

It is quite impressive how well the 1979 film has stood the test of time, visually. Watching a rerun on cable the other week, I found myself musing that, apart from some rather dated computer displays on the Nostromo, the sets and gear could easily be deployed in a new science-fiction film today and few audience members would notice anything out-of-date.

[edit] Confusion

Hi there,

Just to let you know that when it talks about the other alien species, it is talking about that thing that seems to be in the "chair like thing", that is all white, when the crew enter the space-ship on LV-426, and then the screen shoots to where Ripley says to Ash that Mother has de-coded the message and that it's actually a warning.

Hope this helps. And oh yeah, now that I have explained this to you, you might want to add in the part of the text that you removed.

Thanks, J.A

--- 22 June 2005 --- 18:16 BST/GMT ---

[edit] WikiProject

Would it be a good idea to make an "Alien" project? I am surprised one does not exist already. -Matt 02:06, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ripley: "Military" or not?

There is some confusion as to Ripley's status; is she military personnel or not, and what is her rank?

In the 1979 novelisation of the original Alien, when Ripley confronts Dallas about taking off from the planet, Dallas clearly states "this isn't a military vessel...standard procedure is to do what the hell they tell you to do". This would fit in with the fact that the Nostromo is a commercial towing vehicle.

Ripley's status in Aliens seems to be as a civilian advisor to the Colonial Marines. She wears no uniform and is not addressed by rank. Lieutenant Gorman and Sergeant Apone (who is called "Master Sergeant" in the novelisation, but in the film wears U.S. Army Sergeant 1st Class chevrons; one grade below Master Sergeant in both the Army and Marines) are in charge.

However, in both the movie and novel of Alien3, Ripley is addressed as "Lieutenant" (pronounced "lef-tenant" by the primarily British cast). The novelisation also clearly states "she was military, after all".

So, when did she "morph" from being a "civilian" Warrant Officer to a "military" Lieutenant?--MarshallStack 22:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• Perhaps the line is meant to indicate that Ripley had previous military experience before working on the Nostromo. However, this is inconsistent with her attitudes among the marines in Aliens, I would think.

24.33.28.52 21:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Still unsure. As a former USAF enlisted man, I can add my perspective. The Marines may not have liked her simply because she was an officer (remember that SGT Apone and CPL Hicks pretty much ran things, which is the case a lot of the time in military situations, corporals and sergeants running things with an officer overseeing them), if she indeed was (remember how contemptuous they were of Lt Gorman?), but they would have had to give her an officer's customs and courtesies (salutes, addressing her either by rank or "Ma'am", etc - they addressed her by last name, which would have been a big, big no-no). In the US forces a warrant officer is entitled to the same courtesies as commissioned officers (lieutenants and above), but they still rank below lieutenants.--MarshallStack 22:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

i am fairly unfamilar with non-naval meritime(having to do with ships) ranking systems but is it possible that her spot on the nostromo, gave her the rank of lieutenant, or lef-tenant (which if i recall correctly was a british naval rank, not a very high one though) along with her being a warrent officer? -manwithbrisk

• • Again, this is a really grey area. About the only analogy I can draw is officers in the United States Merchant Marine, who, when in uniform, are almost indistinguishable from U.S. Navy/Coast Guard officers (the USMM is closely linked to the USCG) and would have definitely rated a salute from me when I was in the military. The novelisation implies that "warrant officer" was a position, not a rank, but in the U.S. Armed Forces (which seem to be the model for the rank structures), a warrant officer is a specialist officer in between enlisted and commissioned officer ranks. Of course, in the novel of the first film, Dallas is the only one given an actual rank title (captain). The only explanation I can find is that she would have been given honorary lieutenant's rank in Aliens, since they were going into a combat situation. She would have no longer held warrant officer status in Weyland-Yutani's merchant fleet, since they basically cleaned her out in the corporate board of enquiry in Aliens. NB: In the novelisation of Aliens, Burke, when trying to persuade her to go out again with the Colonial Marines, tells her "one more trip and you qualify for a captain's certificate." This would imply to me that she was never truly military, but held a specific position (warrant officer) aboard the Nostromo, which was an unarmed vessel owned by "The Company"/Weyland Yutani. Incidentally, in the USN/USCG there are two grades of lieutenant, close to the bottom of the officer tier (but still outranking warrant officers) and in the Royal Navy and Commonwealth Navies (Australia, Canada, NZ) there are "acting sub-lieutenant", "sub-lieutenant" and "lieutenant" ranks, though the Royal New Zealand Navy follows US precedent in using "ensign" as its lowest commissioned rank. Having said all of this, I still maintain that Ripley was a civilian, though one with considerable combat experience! --MarshallStack 22:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lovecraft

I've often seen Alien and the "cosmic horror" genre of H.P Lovecraft linked, but there's no mention of this in the article. Alien is sometimes used as an example of a Lovecraftian film (example: here, and Giger himself is known to be inspired by Lovecraft's writing.

Is this too slight a fact to warrant a mention? 211.27.72.12 14:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be a great addition. --Quasipalm 16:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Beast Within: The Making of 'Alien'

Saw it as part of the AMC's DVD-TV special on Alien:Resurrection. Highly recommended to all Alien fans! - Emt147 ^Burninate! 05:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Egg origins in Alien 3

(*) There are two theories about how the egg was found within the Sulaco: - The Alien Mother laid it there during the escape from LV-426 (which is almost impossible since its tale-like birth-pipe was broken apart during the explosions and left behind, she couldn't laid any other egg then), - The egg was recovered by Bishop while Ripley came back looking for Newt before the Atmosphere Procesor would explode; Ripley came back to the landing area and Bishop wasn't there. Following his scientific goals, Bishop had enough time to leave the landing area and to pick one of the eggs up to finally bring it back home (Earth) after escaping from the LV-426; Corporal Hicks was on the ship with him but he was knocked down since he got hurt while running away from the Aliens.

Wikipedia is not the appropriate forum for fan fiction or speculation. Can you cite the official Alien/Aliens canon for any of this? - Emt147 ^Burninate! 20:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a place where only official and canon sources can be cited. I think it was a fine addition, and interesting to boot. As long as it is clearly marked as a popular theory among fans, it is ok to add. See Mulholland Drive (film)#Interpretation and allusions for another example. --Quasipalm 03:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Well it wasn't clearly marked as speculation, was it? One user put it in and another began arguing about it right in the article. It's a good movie but it's only a movie. Filling in plot holes is fan fiction. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 05:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userbox

Chernicky 19:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serial line

Does this page need to have synopsis for the rest of the series? Dr. No hasn't got all the other Bond Films on it. Please sort out.

I think we need to have a page for the entire series generally (a place for shared information and the entire overview), and then seperate pages for each film. For an example of this structure, see King's Quest (it was the first that came to mind, but I've seen films broken out by that). Perhaps it could be named Alien (film series) -Quasipalm 18:22, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree to that. A problem has opened up now that Alien vs. Predator messes plot elements of Alien. I would prefer to have the original represented more as a stand alone.

I think most everyone who edits this page would agree -- AvP is such a tangent that it'd be confusing to mix the two on an Alien series page. -Quasipalm 18:21, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I have added a mention of Jon Finch being cast as Kane in Trivia. This links to a mention on his wikipedia page and is backed up by a quote from John Hurt.

I am off the opinion that AvP is not canon and should not be figured into the extended plot line of the alien series. i personally think that we need to label it as something other than a prequel, and should be listed as a pure crossover is anyone else with me on this? -manwithbrisk

[edit] Spin offs

There exist at least three apocryphal novels in Russian, they were published along with the novelisation of the first movie by Dean Forest and of the second one by unmentioned author.(It due time Aliens was the last movie released). Novels continue storyline in different direction, author suggests that those bloodthirsty aliens in the movies are just "wild children", mauglis, raised by Nature rather than by the rather advanced civilisation to which they belong. Ripley visits their planet and stuff.

Interesting -- do you have any links or book titles? -Quasipalm 18:12, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

It is in Russian, alternative novellisation on the first movie called "Одиночка"(Odinochka, = "The Lonely One") by Gleb Kireev,

the second movie novellised by Marina Naumova(in some books she is credited like translator, that was common practice in those years, sometimes she is credited like Marina Tsvetkova) is "Планета отчаяния"(Planeta otchayaniya = "The desperate planet"), Alien 3 novellised by god knows who, some sites credit it to Grigory Panchenko, some -- to Naumova "Наш мир - тюрьма" (Nash mir tyur'ma ="The prison it our world") and original novel by Marina Naumova called "Contact". http://cclib.nsu.ru/koi/tcd/textsf&f/xussr/214/ On my harddrive I have two more novels by Naumova, "Безумие"(Madness) and "Наверху"(Above), but right now I can't find a link.

Also there were novels by Andrey Mart'yanov "Чужие: Русский десант"(Aliens: Russian descent) and "Операция "Рюген""(Operation Rugen) in 1999. Here americans are experimenting with Aliens and brave russian spacetroopeers save the world from them. http://lib.align.ru/authors/1654.html

I've started a section on spin offs on the film series page but see the talk page for suggestions on how it might be split off as it grows. (Emperor 16:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] What network and when did Alien debut on TV?

Just curious if anyone knows the date and network that aired the 1st movie Alien on TV?

It may have been USA Network sometime in the late '80s. I definitely remember seeing it on HBO in 1981.--MarshallStack 22:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Predator as a prequel??

Why the crap are Predator and Predator 2 listed as prequels?? They're a completely different franchise! Yeah, I'm definitely one of those anal Alien fans who despise the crossover, but are we so technical as to claim that they're prequels to the Alien saga?

If anything, you can throw AvP in there, because it actually featured the Alien in it... Still, does anyone else think it's really weird to suddenly lump Alien and Predator within the same franchise? It's illogical to call something a prequel just because of a crossover. It really didn't lead up to the Alien storyline at all (neither did AvP...that just happened before, and never had any sort of direct effect on the plot of the Alien films)

For this reason, I've removed the Predator films from the list. If I'm mistaken, please, I'd really like to get another opinion in on this.

Note that in Predator2 an xenomorph skull was shown hanging in the Predator's ship.

[edit] "It! The Terror From Beyond Space" deserves mention

"It! The Terror from Beyond Space" (1958), starring Marshall Thompson, deserves metion in any discussion about "Alien" (1979). Both films are about an alien that stows away aboard a spacecraft and kill the crew members one at a time, forcing the remainder to hide in a smaller and smaller section of the vehicle. Both monsters are very difficult to kill. In the "It!..." article, it is metioned that the producers of "It!..." sued the producers of "Alien", but, it is not stated what happened in the lawsuit. Many people, including Leonard Maltin and Turner Classic Movies have metioned the simularities between "It!..." and "Alien".204.80.61.10 18:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Agree to thatPiersmasterson 11:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. It's a great movie and clearly seminal to "Alien". I've added a short note to the "Early Versions" section and a link to the "It.." page. --Oscar Bravo 08:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It has been observed that the opening portion of "Alien" has remarkable plot similarities to the low budget italian film "Planet of the Vampires"

While it is clearly seminal, we need to provide a 3rd party source that has made the link to avoid WP:OR issues. Could we get quotes or cites from Maltin or TCM? Ashmoo 01:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Also, The Thing, which Roger Ebert thinks is seminal to Alien. --Oscar Bravo 11:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HR Giger's inspired from a fish!

In a documentary I watched called Deep Blue, they said that Giger was inspired by a fish that lives in the deepest areas of the oceanic floor to design the "alien". What is the name of this fish?--Sonjaaa 16:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the sentence in the Alien Resurrection summary that says the Betty landed in Paris on Earth. This only happens in the Special Edition of Alien Resurrection and directly contradicts the ending of the theatrical version. In the theatrical version Ripley utters her final line "I don't know, I'm a stranger here myself" while still aboard the Betty. Also, the Betty is shown flying over an island beach (not a ruined city) and Call comments on how beautiful it is. In the novel Aliens: Original Sin (2005), the Betty lands on a beach in New Zealand, indicating that the theatrical ending is considered canon. Although novels are not canon they are required to be consistent with canon.

[edit] Influence Section

The Influence section is terrible. Here are the problems I have with it:

• There's no introduction to the section. There should be a short paragraph explaining the impact that the film has had not only for horror and sci-fi movies, but for movies in general.
• It degrades into a list of other movies and games that have merely referenced it. These are less and influence than an homage, and should probably be in a separate section.
• Some items in the list are neither Influenced Works nor References to Alien, but something else altogether, namely the Helene Cixous item and should be moved. Zepheus 21:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, especially on the second point : it's preferable, for clarity's sake, to split the Influence section in two separate sections : one being a "Reference" section, containing all little references and homages to the Alien movie(s) in games and movies, and the other being the real "Influence" section, containing the works influenced by Alien movie(s). AceNoctali 15:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feature films within the same storyline

This section (Feature films within the same storyline) does not need to be on this page. I'm sure the pages for the other movies have their plots listed there. Here, it's just filling up space. Most of this section should just be deleted. There could be another page with an Alien movie series timeline; such a page might already exist. Zepheus 04:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The plot section seems insanely long to me

Anyone else agree? Do there need to be quotes in there and all that detail? Also, why are there plot outlines for other movies that have entries here?

Agreed! Either I'm wrong, or someone is very confused about a plot section's purpose: I thought it sought to briefly describe a film's story, not to reproduce it in its entirety, dialogs included. This level of detail in a plot's summary is ridiculous in an Encyclopedia. If I had wanted to read the whole of it, I'd bought a book instead.

Administrators, please use your scissors! - AVM 22:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It needs major cutting. While well intentioned, the plot section should be a summary, not an accurate description of every dialogue and visual effect. Ashmoo 06:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I decided to attempt to try and cut the plot section down to size. It probably could have a lot more taken out if someone wants to try but I didn't want to go too far so thought I'd be cautious for now.--Chrism 17:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant Plot Summaries

What is gained by having this information here? Neither Indiana Jones nor Star Wars contain repetitions of their own plots, much less plot summaries of the other movies. They simply have the "followed by" and "preceded by" set appropriately. Star Wars has a "Star Wars Universe" page, but I really don't see what is the point of restating the plots of the movies here, when they are available on their own entries. I can see maybe having a one-sentence summary for each, but it just seems silly. --Davetron5000 16:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we just remove the plot summaries for the sequels then? Many of us have a problem with. I'm going to do it per WP:Bold. I'll archive the text so that we have that information to cull from. Alien/QuadrilogySummary - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 16:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Important note. I moved this summary to the article Alien (film series). Please use that page for information on the Alien universe. Let's work on it, and get it up to a good article. - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 17:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tagline

DragoonWraith 02:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC): I know that taglines are not generally supposed to be part of the article, but "In space, no one can hear you scream" seems pretty significant to me. I suppose I'm the only one, though, since no one else has mentioned it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DragoonWraith (talk • contribs).

I absolutely agree. I believe it's one of the most famous (and parodied) taglines of all time. I would say to put it on there. - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm generally not a fan of long lists of taglines, but this one is so famous that it warrants inclusion. Ashmoo 01:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I added the tagline to the opening section. It needs something showing its significance in popular culture as per Wiki:Films Project guidelines. - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 19:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Precursor work POV

What is with that section, the second paragraph is basically a `no it's not, it's completely different'. Definitely should be rewriten or removed. 21 July 2006

Moot point since this has been reworked now, but to answer the original question: The task when comparing things is to high-light their similarities and differences. If there were no similarities, there'd be nothing to note. If there were no differences, they would be identical. By summing up the differences and similarities, you can judge the level of influence and originality in the successor work. For example, if you wanted to compare Flash Gordon with Alien, about the only thing they have in common is that they both feature spaceships, so you could conclude that Flash Gordon was not an influence on Alien. When you compare It! with Alien, you find many similarities, which implies It! was an influence, at least on the storyline, but also many original features in Alien, which are what makes Alien a much better movie than It!. BTW, try comparing Alien with The Thing From Another World... --Oscar Bravo 07:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Space Jocky, or Alien?

I have a problem with the opinion that the Corporation's sole purpose for re-routing the Nostromo to LV-426 was to specifically find the so-called titular alien synonymous with the quadrilogy. Frankly, I think that they (the Corporation) most likely received the same distress signal the Nostromo did, and issued protocol-937 to investigate. However later on, much to Ash's surprise, the true alien presence became the parasitical one, and not the "Space Jockies". --Dark Observer

Is there an issue with the article? - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 19:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence

The influence section is, in my opinion, terrible. At this point, it is just a list of movies, games, comics, TV shows and miscellany that have referenced the film (or simply have creatures with a similar design). It is beyond cruft. It is uber-cruft. Alien has had a such a huge influence on not only horror films, but films in many genres, and instead of discussing those influences, we simply have a list of references. I would love to get this article up to featured status, so let's try and eliminate the cruft and put in some good encyclopedic material about Alien's place in movie history. I mean, Alien was deemed "culturally significant" Library of Congress and selected for preservation in the National Film Registry. Let's show why. Who's with me?! - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 21:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I dunno what do you mean by "cruft" (neither me nor my English-French dictionary does know that word), but... This is the second time you're complaining about the Influence Section, and this is the second time I'll answer you. Like you, I'd really love to improve that article, since I'm an uber fan of the Alien saga. I already proposed to separate the section in two parts : one being the "real" Influence section, the other being the Reference section.

Here's my new proposition : take out ALL the references, create a new Wikipedia article by the name of "List of references to Alien movies", or a title in that style, and put those references in it. Then, put a link of that article into the "Alien" article. A bit like what has been done in, for example, GetBackers article about the characters' list. And then, create the real Influence section (for this, I'll let you take care of it, since it seems you have an idea about this). What do you think of it ? -- AceNoctali 04:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I completely forgot that I had written that earlier comment...happens to me sometimes, but please don't think that I am ignoring your comments. "Cruft" is a word oft used by Wikipedians to denote things that are only of interest to a small group of people. I think splitting off into a new article is good idea as a temporary stopgap, so let's go for that. I need to find some hard references for this section, so we can make it good. Let me know if you know of any. - Zepheus (ツィフィアス) 02:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've started a user subpage where anyone can add references that involve Alien's influence on films, television shows and whatever else. I've added a few quotes. Whatever you can find and source is appreciated. Please include citation information or web address if applicable. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 21:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Feature this!

I believe that we can bring this article up to featured status. We already have a lot of good text and information. It just needs to be organized and sourced. There are a lot of great references at its external reviews page at the IMDb. I think with a focused effort, we can reference many of these claims in a few days. I got started with the Sources section. If anybody would like to help with this, then climb on board. I'm putting an {{Underconstruction}} tag on it to let people know. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 21:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been waiting for someone to come along and jumpstart the process to get it featured. I'll work on it some as well, starting with reorganizing the Plot section.--Dark Kubrick 18:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hot diggity! Now I'm excited. I'll get cracking on references. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 21:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Should definitely be featured. Majik43 23:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

There's currently a template at the top of the article saying that there's a major overhaul in progress, and there's a template at the top of the trivia section saying that it's too long, so I'm hesitant to actually add anything, but I think it would be very noteworthy to mention that John Hurt satirically reprised his role as Kane in a scene (spoofing the chestburster scene) in the 1987 movie Spaceballs. Since I really don't know what's involved in this overhaul or how long it's going to take, I'll just leave it up to someone more involved in the project to decide if and when to add this note. - Ugliness Man 06:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I put both those templates on this page. You are welcome to help out making this article rock socks off. For the Spaceballs reference, check out List of cultural references to Alien. If that's deemed a more significant reference, it can be moved back to the main Alien page at some point. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 16:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I just moved some trivia into the main production section. Nice to help out. Wiki-newbie 16:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. By the way, references also help; if you would like to find references for those pieces of "trivia," that would be most helpful as well. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 19:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ref problem

Ref #5 seems to not work. Any way to fix it without putting an "obsolete since" tag?--Dark Kubrick 13:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I just tested it and had no problem with it. What is the problem? - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 06:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

When I click on the link, my computer goes nowhere. It doesn't freeze up or anything; it just has that very slow loading bar, and never takes me anywhere.--Dark Kubrick 18:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe try the link by itself, and see if that works. I suppose it could either be a URL problem or a Reference tag problem. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 21:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. Both the link and the one in the article work for me now. Just a fluke I guess.--Dark Kubrick 02:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template/infopanel

There are two of these Template:Alien and Template:AVP and I'd like to add the information from the latter into the former and update the main one (both format and content). I'll go ahead and do it when I get the time and see how it goes (unless anyone raises any objections). (Emperor 13:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC))

To be honest, I think the Alien Template is too big as it is, and shouldn't include some of the information it already has. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 17:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think a restlying (like moving the headers to a side column (as on the games one) would help tighten things up. (Emperor 17:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC))

I agree. Something like the music genre infoboxes might even work. See Drum and bass - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 17:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that is one idea although it can't fit much in. I have just worked on this Template:Judge Dredd which is nearly the same size as the current Alien one but manages to fit about 3 or 4 times the amount of information in. See also Template:Battle Royale. We could redo the Alien template, add in the games, add more missing information and still have a smaller panel than we currently have. Everyone's a winner ;) (Emperor 18:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC))

If you can merge those templates and make it look good, go ahead and do it. --Mika1h 16:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully it should still look good as it'll be based on your AVP template - using a table so the headers are on the left will reduce the amount of vertical height each section requires (in the current Alien template) will be reduced so the end result shouldn't take up anymore room that the current Alien one while fitting more information in (Emperor 17:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC))

OK as no one has raised any objections I'll have a crack at it later and we can see how it looks and if it is felt it doesn't work we can revert it. (Emperor 13:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

Its now done - as I suspected it is the same size as the previous one but now contains more information as I've added in a lot of missing entries and combined it with the AvP games one. Compare and contrast with the horror show of Terminator template that you can see here: Aliens vs. Predator vs. The Terminator. Granted it may need tweaks but I'm happy with the way the overhaul has turned out. Thoughts? (Emperor 16:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

That actually looks quite good. Way to step up. One question. Would it work to put both the Alien and Predator films on the top line? - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 16:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on what the topmost entry is. If it is this one then most certainly. I went with the film series one as it links off to all the film and can be considered as a higher level entry. A fix might be: Alien, Predator & Alien vs. Predator - although note that Category:Alien series links to the film series entry at the top. I think this will have to be a group decision. I am not really fussed either way although marginally lean towards having it as it is. See what other people think and its easy enough to change. (Emperor 16:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Category:Aliens characters

This category is empty and seems to be redundant as this Category:Alien film series characters contain the characters. Delete? (Emperor 16:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Related-entries requiring attention

There are some Alien series entries that either need a lot of epxanding or merging into other articles:

• Xenomorph-Yautja War - nothing much links into it. I'd suggest merging it into Alien vs. Predator
• Alien Quadrilogy - deals with the boxset and, as great as it is, I suspect it could go in Alien (film series)
• Barbara Coles - her most notable role was as cocooned woman in Aliens. I wonder if that really qualifiesas notable enough for an entry.

Anyway just a few thoughts in passing. (Emperor 17:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Long plot section

The plot section is over-long. It needs to be pared down to a short summary of the events as opposed to a play-by-play. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 05:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. There are a lot of entries on Wikipedia with very detailled plot summaries and it just bloats an entry. (Emperor 13:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC))

I've cut down the synopsis as best I can. Can Bignole state whether he has any more problems regarding the plot?--Dark Kubrick 17:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't just about the size (though it was overly long). It's also about the "in this film", "at the start of the film" type text. It's just things like those examples that should be removed. I haven't had a chance to read through the whole plot summary, but those are things I just caught in the first paragraph. Sometimes they are necessary to explain what is going on, but usually they are needless text that can be removed. Example, we don't need the "this film mostly takes place on the Nostromo", because that will become evident during the reading of the plot itself. I think you've done a good job of shortening it, but not it needs some copyediting (which, most likely will shorten it some more, but that's not definitive). Bignole 17:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I worked on some of the things that Bignole talked about. It's slightly shorter and some redundancies are removed. I think it's getting there. If anybody else wants to take a stab at it, go for it. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 18:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OR

I've cut the following section has it appears to be original research, which is not acceptable. It needs to be fully referenced before being restored. Dan100 (Talk) 07:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Themes

This article or section may contain original research or unattributed claims. Please help Wikipedia by adding references. See the talk page for details.

Most critics and fans of the film have commented on the theme of the human birth cycle. When Kane, Dallas, and Lambert venture into the alien craft, they enter through giant vagina-like openings and travel up a tunnel that resembles the birth canal. The fossilized alien sits in a long, telescopic phallus-shaped piece of machinery, and the audience can intrepret the egg that Kane finds as an ovum. Such imagery fits with the often sexual nature of Giger's art.

The film presents a version of birth that might seem almost empathetic with that of the woman's experience: the alien bursting from Kane's chest reflects the intense pain that a woman experiences during natural child-birth (birth without anesthesia). The film also more broadly deals with issues of human sexuality, including rape, free love and even homosexuality, although these last two points only emerge in the director's audio commentary on DVD.

Another major theme of the film deals with blue-collar workers faced with extraordinary circumstances. With the exception of Ash (the science officer), all the characters, even the officers, appear as working-class. In contrast stands the image of a corporation that puts profit before the safety of its workers. Ripley speculates that the company wanted the creature for its weapons division. To acquire it, the company makes the lives of the crew members expendable. This may reflect an American view of the economic culture of the 1970s, when millions of blue-collar workers lost their jobs as American corporations shut down factories and other production facilities in favor of cheap, overseas labor. David Giler and Walter Hill added these paranoia themes, much to the chagrin of Dan O'Bannon who thought they had used his film to make a trite statement against the American work-ethic.

The film also explores the confusion of artificial with organic. The initial stress laid on life-cycles and biological processes eventually eases off once the alien births. After it escapes, much weight is given to visually confusing its smooth head with metal piping and its spindly, bristling legs and tail with wires, chains, and grates. The film further explores this theme with the computer system "Mother", with the revelation of Ash as an android, and with the realization that Ash's mission involves regarding humans as accessories or mechanisms in the process of preserving the alien and of bringing it to Earth at all costs.

The name of the ship, "Nostromo", provides a reference to the novel of the same name by Joseph Conrad, an author visited earlier by Ridley Scott in his movie The Duelists. In Conrad's Nostromo, a silver-mining corporation entrusts a dangerous cargo (silver — dangerous because revolutionaries want it) to an audacious anti-hero called Nostromo, tasking him with protecting it from the revolutionaries. This may link with the idea of blue-collar workers facing impossible odds, as mentioned above. Given the eventual destruction of the alien cargo, like the betrayal of the silver in Conrad's Nostromo, one could draw parallels between the eventual corruption of Nostromo and the "corruption" of Ripley. The shuttle Narcissus also comes from Conrad's oeuvre: see The Nigger of the Narcissus.

[edit] Special Features

I removed the list of deleted scenes. I did this for several reasons, one is that listing isn't good for an article and another is that listing every deleted scene is unencyclopedic, it runs up there with expanded plots that detail everything that happens in a film. If it was something special, like Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut, then I could understand. There is a history behind that film's deleted scenes, steming back 20 years. The scenes that were deleted in this film were done by the original Director for the same reasons that every Director deletes them. Noting that there are deleted scenes, that the Director's cut is actually shorter than the original theatrical, and that the Quadrilogy allows you to view either film is enough to note. Bignole 03:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed trivia section.

I removed the trivia section per Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles. I think that this information can go somewhere, but I'm not sure where at this point. Perhaps if we had a Reception and audience reaction section. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 04:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• The scene where the alien Chestburster emerges from Kane conveyed such violence that it caused some people watching the movie to faint, and others to vomit.^[1]

Yeah we should keep that. We don't need a "audience reaction" section, because that borders on "fan reaction" which can't be measured accurately. Just a general "Reception" section with your standard film critic sources, and this tacked on. Bignole 11:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur. When I was checking out the article, I noticed a lack of a Reception section. I think part of the problem is that, when I looked, I mostly found reviews of the 2004 re-release. If we can find some reviews of the original release, that would be helpful. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 17:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think both reviews would be good, but the original reviews should be the majority. It will probably be hard considering you don't have many movies that get released 20 years later into the theaters as a Director's cut. Bignole 17:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Along with launching the career of actress Sigourney Weaver, the film proved to be pioneering as it was the first action film to feature a strong female heroine."

There is no evidence provided to support this claim. Many action films prior to Alien featured female protagonists in the heroine role. This was a huge trend in blaxploitation films, notably Coffy and Foxy Brown. Many 60s spy/mod films, for instance Modesty Blaise, also featured a female heroine in an action film. Whoever wrote this is putting forth a false statement of opinion and is using no evidence or sources to back up their argument. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.104.58.116 (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Stylistic reversions by Dark Kubrick

User:Dark Kubrick commented on 18 December 2006 to User:Pedant17:

Hi. I'm posting here in regards to your several copyedits on the Alien (film) page. I'm sorry to say that I've just reverted for your edits for perhaps the fourth time now, and I thought I should leave a little reasoning here justifying my actions.

As many as four times! - I hadn't noticed the undeclared edit-war had become that prolonged! - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

While I admire your input and efforts, I believe your edits only make the text seem more vague, awkward, or bloated (sorry, I can't think of a better term).

Thanks for the comments and analysis. I certainly do not wish to make the encyclopedia-text any more vague than needed, though if accuracy makes things awkward, I don't mind "awkward". As for "bloated" -- Wikipedia-space has plenty of room still: we can take the extra bytes to make edits accurate, comprehensive and balanced. - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

For example, the opening sentence, "Alien is a 1979 science fiction / horror film directed by Ridley Scott, from an original story by Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett" you always change to "Ridley Scott directed the 1979 science fiction / horror film Alien from an original story by Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett".

I do not "always change" the opening sentence to use the same formulation. On 2006-11-21 I offered:

Alien, a science fiction/horror film directed by Ridley Scott, from an original story by Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett, appeared in 1979 .

- Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

On 2006-10-27 I suggested:

Alien, a 1979 science fiction/horror film directed by Ridley Scott from an original story by Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett, takes as its theme human/alien interaction.

- Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

On 2006-10-14 I suggested:

Ridley Scott directed the 1979 science fiction horror film Alien from an original story by Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett.

- Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

On 2006-09-14 I used:

Ridley Scott's 1979 science-fiction/horror film Alien launched what would become a successful Hollywood media franchise, spawning three sequels.

- Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

On 2006-08-23 I offered:

Alien, a 1979 science-fiction/horror film directed by Ridley Scott, launched what would become a successful Hollywood franchise.

... and so forth ... - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Any of the versions I have contributed would satisfy me, and I regard any of them as better and more expressive of NPOV than the bland formula "Alien' is a ... film ...". We certainly can and do treat Alien as a film, but we could equally (and people do) discuss Alien as a cultural icon, as a cinematographic turning point, and or as a watershed in the careers of Ridley Scott and/or Sigourney Weaver. The file Alien "is" all of these things. To use the simple assertion that "Alien' is a ... film ..." belittles the phenomenon and reduces it to a single category. I wouldn't want to see us doing that in the first sentence of any Wikipedia article. (For hints on the arrogant dogmatism and potential confusion resulting from the use of "is" and other forms of the verb "to be", see the article on E-Prime.) - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Certainly Alien was more than just a film, but I don't think we're "belittling the phenomenon" in the first sentence. We're stating the simple fact that Alien is, first and foremost, a film. But it's not like we're completely ignoring its other attributes, as they're covered in the very next sentences (hopefully), and people don't usually stop after reading the first sentence of the article.

Limitations belittle. The article discusses all aspects of the film, not simply the film qua film. -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

As for being bland, it's no more bland than starting with the other angles.

Any use of "is" reduces anything to blandness, whereas active verbs provide color and interest. -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't it sound more professional to make the article's title the first word in the sentence?

I don't know what you mean by "professional" in this instance. - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

This is kinda related to the next point.

I still have no idea what you mean by "professional". (It sounds like a dirty word to me...) -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

With your wording, it sounds like the article is about Ridley Scott, not the film itself.

Possibly, but we already have the article's title written bold and large immediately above, and we have the entire context of the article to restore any perceived imbalance between Scott and Alien. I sometimes use the title as the first word or phrase (see above for examples of my suggestions), but we could make a case for disparaging the practice as repetitive and formulaic. -- Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm meeting you halfway here. I see your point, but I just think starting with the director takes away, however briefly, the focus of the article.

Films don't simply spring into existence: someone makes them. We can highlight a director or a star or whoever functions as an active agent in getting a film made. This article contains the length and detail that it does because of the creative work of Ridley Scott and his people. Otherwise we wouldn't write an article about mere reels of acetate. -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've also seen you add some "in order to"'s when just "to" would suffice.

I plead guilty as charged. For example, on 2006-12-14 I changed the sentence "The crew split up into two teams to capture the creature" into "The crew split up into two groups in order to capture the creature". My version sounds more euphonious, avoiding the confusing sound-repetition of "into two teams to". My version also by-passes any hint of ambiguity as to whether the phrase "to capture" refers to the "teams" (teams with the purpose of capturing) or to the "split" (splitting in order to capture). We could improve the situation still futher by re-casting the sentence into "In order to capture the creature, the crew split into two groups." - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The "in order"'s don't add anything at all-the repetitive "two/to" sounds are still there. But I agree a re-wording is necessary.

The "in order"'s break up at least one of the combinations. -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, you linked box office as box-office. That doesn't sound right.

On the contrary, changing "box office success" to "box-office success" better reflects the sound of the spoken phrase. The text "box office success" appears ambiguous when out-of-context: the reader cannot tell whether it refers to a success in an office where that success has something to do with a box, with boxes or with boxing; or whether it references a success which has something to do with what we call "the box-office". We hyphenate the noun-phrase "box-office" to alleviate the ambiguity -- especially when using "box-office" as an adjectival phrase, as in this case. - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Are there other words where this applies as well, because it sounds kinda weird to me.

The general practices apply: see hyphen#Examples of usage. -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, certainly not all of your changes deserved reverting, but they were so scattered in one edit that reverting was all I could do.

You could have edited and improved each of my changes one by one, in the same way that I made them. - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I apologize-that was a stupid mistake on my part.--Dark Kubrick 02:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, thanks for your help, and I hope you understand my reasoning.

Tnanks for you comments. - Pedant17 01:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I point to these Featured Articles: Jaws, Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, and Halloween. Each is culturally iconic in it's own field, and hold just as much popularity, launchment of careers, and impact as Alien. The most important part, they are all featured articles. Also, let's try not to interrupt each statement with a new one, it disturbs the continuity of the discussion and makes it hard to follow. It's best to quote what the person says, than to insert your comment into the middle of theirs.

We can use indentation... -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope these articles help with the disagreement over the lead paragraph. Bignole 03:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

We can certainly improve Featured Articles too. -- Pedant17 05:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Look at basically any film article and you'll see they pretty much all read the same in the opening line. The opening line is supposed to be about "what is this film" not what happened to the film. If a film was released in 1960, it's a 1960 film. If it's a horror film, then it's a 1960 horror film. Saying "it went into release in 1960" is not only just verbose wording but implies that the film is still in release today. Maybe that could be understandable to films released in December, which might make them effectively a film of one year and of the new year, but this particular film was released in May.  BIGNOLE   (Question?)  (What I do)  01:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cast section

The alien needs a description to remain uniform to the other character's descriptions. Just wanted to point it out before somebody reviews it for GA. --Nehrams2020 00:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination on hold

I like what's been done with the article so far, but the article needs some reference notes added in the "Early versions" section. (Ibaranoff24 17:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC))

It looks like the best resource regarding this is in the Alien quadrilogy docu Star Beast. I would do it, but I only have the Alien Legacy set. I think someone needs to look at that doc and verify that this info is correct and cite it. - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 19:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

A good reference for this is:

• Beautiful Monsters: The Unofficial and Unauthorised Guide to the Alien and Predator Films (by David A. McIntee, Telos, 272 pages, 2005, ISBN 1-903889-94-4)

Everything seems consistent with what is said there but (as I'm working from memory) I'll go through it in a bit and double check and drop a reference in to that if it all looks solid. (Emperor 20:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC))

Awesome. Are there any other parts that need work? Should we make a to-do list? - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA nomination

I got to tell you, the article is pretty well done, but without those footnotes, I've got to fail the GA nomination. Sorry. (Ibaranoff24 06:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Giger's Alien

I've nominated the page Giger's Alien for deletion because it appears to be just a list of names for the aliens in the franchise, aliens covered extensively at Xenomorph (Alien). The deletion debate is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Giger's Alien, I thought I'd mention it here as the article's creator seems very attached to it... Driller thriller 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)