Talk:Alsatian language

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Does Alsatian have a standard orthography? Maximus Rex 23:12, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No. That's a problem all Alemannic speakers face when they try to write in their language. For instance some people write the long "i" (English ee) as "y", others as "ii", and others like in German: "ie" (which actually represents another sound in Alemannic), and this is one of the more minor problems. On the Alemannic Wikipedia we've solved it by allowing anyone to write as they speak; with a few recommendations.

Are there any teach-yourself books or similar in English? Justinc 14:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

It would be a good idea to look out over at the german and French articles, which are much more complete, for material. Circeus 04:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

How many alsatian speakers are there in France?--Burgas00 20:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, in 1978 around 60% of the people in Alsace, meaning about a million (probably lower now). Also in 1978, 35% of the below 20 year olds still spoke Alemannic. Of these 35%, only 20% said that they spoke Alsatian with their friends and siblings as long as no French-speakers were present (in that case, only 3% spoke Alsatian). This means that we can at best expect 7% of the youngest generation to pass on Alsatian to their children.--Chlämens 16:26, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of inscription

The inscription on the window is not in Alsatian, only in an old form of Standard German. Phonetically, it's not Alsatian since "House" is spelled with a diphthong rather than as hus.--Chlämens 04:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

True, let's remove it. Chl 01:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a new image. I hope it's better. J-C V 15:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Comment from 4th Generation Alsatian in Texas

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If anyone can source the claim that Office 2007 will appear in an Alsatian version, they can reinstate the commented-out "Trivia" section. CapnPrep 00:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

My favorite cousin from Castroville was in Austin January 22-23, 2007. He speaks fluent Alsatian and Karen Roesch, from the Germanic Studies Dept. at The University of Texas, interviewed him at length. They made an Alsatian language CD which could be useful as a learning tool. Since the language is a dialect, and unwritten, the only way to learn it is to listen and speak. Hearing it brings back memories of my parents and grandparents who conversed in that tongue. WWII is the watermark for when they stopped teaching their children to speak it, so I didn't learn. Justin Jungman is four years older than me and thinks that is why he was born in time to learn it. His brothers who are closer to my age didn't. I do have an ear for it, though. Interestingly the European Alsatians find that the language still spoken here in Texas is one hundred forty years behind current usage in Alsace. It is as if the language was frozen in time for having been isolated by immigration. This is similar to Patois spoken in backwaters of Louisiana. Justin returns annually to Alsace where he if feted as the Alsatian Cowboy revisiting his roots from America. They treat him like visiting royalty, staying at the homes of the governor and others who wish to converse with him. He is translating country music classics into Alsatian for the bands in Alsace who play in the style of Western swing as good as any in Texas. We went to the Broken Spoke last night and heard Alvin Crow and the Hard Core Country band. Justin had brought me a CD from an Alsatian band. The Ruby Ranch Band's Western swing rendition of Amazing Grace is priceless. Frances Hans Morey, Austin, TX Fmorey 16:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC Fmorey 13:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Fmorey 14:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A dialect rather than a language

By what linguistic standard is Alsatian considered a language? The first sentence in this article accurately describes Alsatian as a dialect. In the English language, the term dialect is not interchangeable with the term language. I strongly suggest changing title of article to something like Alsatian (dialect) to make this distinction. D'accord? Comme le Lapin 08:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong disagree. There is no linguistic standard, only socio-cultural-historico-political motivations (but these are also valid and should not be dismissed). And for those reasons, Alsatian is considered a regional language of France just like Breton, Occitan, Catalan, Basque, etc. CapnPrep 09:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There are linguistic standards that are detached from such "socio-cultural-historico-political motivation." Disagreement with motivation does not make the scientific fact of the thing any less verifiable. The phonetics, phonology, and morphology of Alsatian are a combination of elements from other languages, as are its lexicon and syntax. It is a regional dialect. This is not a value judgment. Just as the many forms of British, American, Canadian, and Australian are kinds of English, rather than separate languages, Alsatian too is a dialect. Comme le Lapin 17:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean with "The phonetics, phonology, and morphology of Alsatian are a combination of elements from other languages, as are its lexicon and syntax"? Alsatian is a Germanic language (more specifically Alemannic) with some vocabulary borrowed from French and a few terms from Yiddish. There is no French influence (or from any other language) on syntax, phonology, or morphology worth mentioning. Even the French influence on vocabulary is quite small, much smaller than the amount of French borrowing in English. The Alemannic dialects are not mutually intelligible with German, so using this definition they are a separate language; the reason they are often considered to be German dialects is because since the decline of the written Alemannic language in the 16th-17th century, they have used Standard German as their written form. Apart from that, the distinction language-dialect is almost meaningless in linguistics and is often not bothered with. --Chlämens 18:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Pardon my lack of clarity earlier. The point I actually mean to make is, interestingly, the exact opposite of what your last statement: the distinction between language and dialect is not meaningless (it's not even almost meaningless) in linguistics and it is bothered with. The many dialects found in England are not considered distinctly separate languages, even if they border on mutually intelligible, and the same is true of American dialects; they are components of the same whole. The reason I mentioned this initially was in the interest of accuracy, but I sense in this discussion that some of us equate the designation "language" with "superior" and the designation "dialect" with "inferior." That's not at all what I mean. I'm not making a value judgment, I'm simply saying that language and dialect are not necessarily interchangeable terms. For example, in the English language, "'ink" is not necessarily synonymous with "paint," the word "flower" is not interchangeable with the word "plant," and so on. In this context, it seems "dialect" would be the more accurate term. No offense intended. Comme le Lapin 02:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The question is a political rather than a linguistic one. In linguistic terms, Alsatian is part of a dialect continuum that encompasses all of Germany. If you consider Alsatian a dialect, it has to be a German dialect, the idea of which, I suppose, most Alsatians would resent. Yet, there is to my knowledge no Standard Alsatian and the Alsatian dialects are perfectly comprehensible to speakers of adjacent Swiss or German dialects. I am from Frankfurt and I experience no difficulties in following a conversation in the dialect of Wissembourg (the northermost town in Alsace). Still, for political reasons, the French recognized "Alsacien" as a "langue regionale" - they could hardly be expected to recognize "Allemand". Thus, I suggest that we do not change the article to "Alsatian dialect".Unoffensive text or character 09:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Your comment is interesting. The reason you can understand the dialects from northern Alsace is because they are Frankish dialects, like the dialect of Frankfurt, unlike the rest of Alsace which is Alemannic. The Alemannic variants are comprehensible to people speaking Alemannic variants of Germany and Switzerland. Alemannic and Frankish are not mutually intelligible though, to add to the confusion. --Chlämens 14:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

To add yet further to the confusion, I have little difficulties to understand the Alemannic dialect of Sufflenheim (not far from Weißenburg) if spoken slowly and distinctly, as the transition from Alemannic to Frankish is not an abrupt one. But of course, I can hardly follow a conversation in Colmar or Mühlhausen Alsatian and in Altkirch or Pfirt I'd be completely lost.Unoffensive text or character 14:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I just realized I used German placenames throughout. Sorry, no offence intended, it's just that they are very deeply engraved in my mental map of Alsace (most Germans do not even know them nowadays). That's Souffleheim, Wissembourg, Mulhouse (Mühlhausen) and La Ferrete (Pfirt).Unoffensive text or character 14:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Lapin, if you'd like to see the name of this article changed, make a formal proposal. I don't think you will succeed, but at least this particular question will be settled. Otherwise, the language vs. dialect issue is a more general, very long-standing, occasionally interesting, and IMO ultimately futile, debate that should be continued elsewhere. CapnPrep 09:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not a personal matter for me, and I have no intention of (or interest in) making a formal proposal, especially on "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." I had only made a valid suggestion, which has been nicely responded to by other users. This discussion has been relevant to the article, but seems to have reached its natural end. By that I mean, in the context of this article, this matter seems to have been resolved. Comme le Lapin 18:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)