Talk:Amherst, Massachusetts

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Amherst, Massachusetts is part of WikiProject Massachusetts, an effort to create, expand, and improve Massachusetts-related articles to a feature-quality standard.

Contents 1 Pronunciation 2 Other Issues 3 healthcare 4 James Tate

[edit] Pronunciation

I live in Massachusetts and frequently visit Amherst and I argue that the "h" is indeed pronounced by its natives. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.19.171.159 (talk • contribs) .

I live in Amherst, and am quite certain that it is not. Perhaps some UMass students from elsewhere in the state mispronounce it, but the actual residents ("townies") pronounce the name without the h. The same h-less pronounciation is mentioned in the Amherst College article. ^L_Wizard @ 03:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I too live in Amherst, and the h is definitely not pronounced by, as LizardWizard says, actual residents. Many people make this mistake, however, and I do know that several of the other "Amherst"s around the northeast US and Canada pronounce the h. When I say "know" I mean I'm pretty sure they do. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense not to pronounce it, but that's the way it is. Do you really think we could or would make something like that up? -GlamdringCookies 07:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I am a native of Amherst, and I can assure you the proper pronunciation is without an "h". I once heard a story that a professor was denied tenure at UMass for not learning this fact, but that's probably apocryphal.

When listening to people speak, it is impossible to know who is a 60-year resident and native of the town, who is just passing through, or who is an, ahem, know-it-all college student who thinks they know what "townies" do and don't do. Unless you know EVERY SINGLE native or townie of the town, you cannot say that the "h" is not pronounced. Some people do, some don't. It's like the Boston dialect. There are people who have lived in Boston their whole lives, and do not speak with a regional dialect, while their next door neighboors show all the signs of it. This is far more complicated than saying "it's officially pronounced as x." You may want to take this issue up with John_McCarthy_(linguist). I'm sure he'd have an opinion. Until then, it's best not to write a definitive statement. Crunch 19:29, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The pronunciation issue was debated briefly on the Talk:Amherst College page as well, and we agreed that since the College was named for the Town, pronunciation necessarily followed. It's a slippery issue, particularly in New England, given that one's manner of speaking can be used, shibboleth-like, to judge one (the professor denied tenure is probably apocryphal, but there's a kernel of truth there: there are people who will think you uneducated if you don't pronounce things "correctly" from their point of view.) I've been a resident of the town, both as a student and as a taxpayer, I don't use the 'h', but I've heard people use it; I find that if I use it, I get mail addressed to "Amhurst, MA." Pjmorse 21:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Another important point to consider is that use of the New England dialect is changing. I'm a Boston native and do not speak with the New England dialect. I have no idea why this is in my case. In response to Pjmorse: I wasn't sure that paying taxes affected one's dialect, but now that you mention it, my latest property tax bill did render me speechless for a minute or two! And if you don't use the "h," is your mail addressed to "Amyrst, MA" ? In any case, it looks like the compromise wording currently used in the article is a good one. Crunch 16:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the compromise wording is good. On another note, it's a bit disingenuous to agree to wording "currently in the article" moments before changing the wording. ^L_Wizard @ 18:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I would go so far as to suggest that you probably do speak with a New England accent, by the way. Do father and bother rhyme? AJD 22:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved to Pelham in 1973 and lived there and in Amherst until the late 1990s. In all that time, I never met a single person who pronounced the "h" except total newcomers, who were promptly corrected. The "h" is silent. The fact that some people mispronounce the name does not render it a valid pronunciation, any more than the fact that some pronounce "nuclear" as "nook-yoo-ler" makes that a valid pronunciation.

I'm strongly inclined to rephrase the section from "name of the town is pronounced by long-time residents..." to "the name of the town is properly pronounced..."

Septegram 15:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Since no one offered a substantive reason not to (or any reason, for that matter), I went ahead and made the change.

Septegram 21:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be inclined to leave the compromised wording as it was. While I agree with you that it is the proper pronunciation, some people might disagree. Who's to say what the proper pronunciation is? Refering to it as the pronunciation used by long-time residents implies that they consider it the proper one, and one might reason that theirs is the highest authority. What I'm saying is, the compromise wording implies the definitiveness that you're looking for, while still leaving room for those worthy people who disagree. I'm not going to change it back, but if anyone gets upset, perhaps it would be a good fallback position. -GlamdringCookies 22:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, but there is a correct pronunciation. The correct pronunciation of the town Beaulieu in England is "BYOO-lee," despite the fact that it is obviously from the French (in which it would be pronounced something like "bow-lyew"). While I consider that to be an abominable abuse of the word, I pronounce it that way because that is the correct (native) pronunciation. Similarly, the correct pronunciation of "Amherst" is without the "h." Looking over the discussion, I see that only one person even "argued" that the "h" is pronounced. Several residents (or, in my case, former residents) have stated quite forcefully that the "h" is silent. I don't see any reason to be other than definitive here.

(a homesick) Septegram 22:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay. But who says that it's the correct pronunciation? And "everyone!" isn't an acceptable answer, because just because everyone does something doesn't make it right. Or does it, in this case? At what percentage of people disagreeing does it become no longer correct? I prefer to not think in terms of "correct" and "incorrect" at all; it's more supportable and doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. But y'know, everyone I know from Amherst says it that way, so who am I to argue. -GlamdringCookies 05:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

In a case like this, I'd say that if everyone who lives there says "x" is the pronunciation, that makes it the correct pronunciation de facto, if not de jure. While I, too, have concern for people's feelings, sometimes accuracy has to take precedence. Some people's feelings are hurt if they see the age of the Earth listed as more than ~6,000 years, but that doesn't mean we weasel-word the Wikipedia entry on the Earth.

However, in the interests of certainty, I'll check with the town and see if there's a definitive source (preferably online) that I can use as a reference.

Septegram 13:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Town website does not have a definitive statement about the pronunciation. I checked with the Town Hall, and they confirmed the pronunciation, but confirmed that the website does not specifically state the pronunciation.

Four external URLs, including the BBC and excluding ones which were obviously copied from Wikipedia, confirm the pronunciation. I added them to the pronunciation section, and hope this will set this "debate" to rest.

Septegram 16:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Rock. Props for the research. -GlamdringCookies 19:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. They're not exactly authoritative sites (the town and the Chamber of Commerce both inconsiderately neglect to provide the correct pronunciation), but the number of them seemed sufficient to me.

Septegram 19:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the kudos on the research, but I trimmed one because it was just a copy of the Amherst College page (and an old one, at that.) It looks like the graph may need some rearranging now, with three refs in one location and another coming at the end of the sentence? It looks like the reference to amerst.com is going to talk about other towns named Amherst. (And I'd just as soon lose the link to amerst.com; as a contributor to the site, I don't mind seeing links to it, but I don't think we're an authority on this matter.) - Pjmorse 02:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

My bad on the link; thanks for catching that. I usually edit from work, so sometimes I get a bit rushed. I'm going to let someone else decide about the amerst.com link, although the site's header says "Amherst College news and discussion from the Pioneer Valley and around the world," so I'm not sure there's going to be much about other Amhersts there.

When I get a minute, I'm going to look over 70.19.171.159's contributions, one or two of which seem a little dodgy. Zie started this whole foofooraw, so I got curious as to what else zie had been up to.

Septegram 13:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

From an Amherst Native: Having grown up in Amherst and even attended college here, the h in Amherst is NOT pronounced unless someone is still new to the town.

Ditto. I too grew up in Amherst. I lived there from 1967 to 1991. I have degrees from both Amherst College and UMass-Amherst. My family still lives there; my uncle is a professor at the college, and my mother taught elementary school there for 27 years. I visit every six weeks or so. The silent "h" is, in my experience, universal.

I'm changing "is pronounced" to "is usually pronounced" again. As someone who's spent a lot of time in Amherst I can confirm that residents and most other people pronounce it without the H. As Wikipedia is not in the business of dictating proper pronunciation, however, we should acknowledge that many people do pronounce the town's name with an H. Whether this pronunciation is judged to be correct or incorrect is irrelevant. Rhobite 05:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia shouldn't be in the business of qualifying every statement. Our soccer article says "it is played on a rectangular grass field", even though many people (perhaps ones who don't know better) play it on a variety of other surfaces in other shapes.

Wikipedia is in the business of dictating proper pronunciation: see Euler - the pronunciation is practically the very first thing in the article. Who's to say how Euler is pronounced? I mean, yes, we know how Euler himself pronounced it, and how his parents intended it to be pronounced, and how it makes sense to be pronounced in German (all the same way), but all over the country hundreds, nay, thousands, of people are "mis"pronouncing it (pronouncing it an alternative way, I should say). How can we just blithely say "pronounced Oiler"?

I don't see a substantive difference between the pronunciation of Euler and Amherst. If you can get Euler changed to say "usually pronounced Oiler but often pronounced Yooler", then I will reconsider. Until then, I see no point in adding the note that many people do something improperly. ^L_Wizard @ 11:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Only in an academic community would so much hot air be expended on the "correct" pronuciation and so liitle on actual factual content. Next, we'll have a big debate as to whether the coffee shop (Rao's) is pronounced with one syllable or two. (My two cents: everyone I know who's a native or a resident of more than 20 years time does not pronounce the 'h'. Therefore, regardless of what is correct or not, saying the 'h' will mark you as a recent transplant. Modified the text of the article to reflect this.) Ken K 14:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

For me (and it was I who removed "properly" yesterday), the issue about that qualifier is that it's superfluous. What's the difference between saying "Amherst is properly (or usually) pronounced with the h silent" and "Amherst is pronounced with the h silent"? Yes, the former acknowledges that people frequently mispronounce it, but they have equal authoritativeness, it seems to me. I think a clearer way of including the fact that people mispronounce it is to include a sentence or clause saying as much. Can we just do that and end this ridiculously long kerfuffle? -GlamdringCookies 16:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Go wild. Add the sentence! The current "The name of the town is pronounced (by natives and long-time residents)" smells weasel-wordy to me, as it leaves open the possibility that this is merely a preference rather than the correct pronunciation (see my comment on the pronunciation of Beaulieu). Putting in a reference to mispronunciation will settle that nicely. There is such a thing as the correct pronunciation, however much some people want to say otherwise. I have spoken.

Septegram 18:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Issues

I deleted the snippet about the Horse Caves being a hideout for Shays' men after their defeat at the hands of the Massachusetts militia, as the full entry on Shays' Rebellion does not mention this and the story told there does not suggest that hiding out in Amherst would have been likely. Actual cites to independent research would be valuable. Ken K 14:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] healthcare

anyone know about the quality of healthcare in amherst for poor people? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.232.156.44 (talk) 21:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] James Tate

I just reverted an edit which suggested (among irrelevancies) that James Tate (which link I disambiguated) lives in Leverett, not Amherst. (I think that's what they meant; they misspelled "Leverett".) Anyone know any better? According to Tate's page, he's teaching at UMass, which makes Leverett residency as likely as Amherst. --Pjmorse 13:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• It's funny, 'cause I was just in Rao's for a long time today. Sorry, tangential....well, I don't know for sure, but doing Google searches of James tate amherst, ma and James tate leverett, ma, the former comes up with a phone/address result, whereas the latter does not. My guess, therefore, is that he in fact does live in Amherst, not Leverett. -GlamdringCookies 21:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)