Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/El kondor pada

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Contents 1 Establishing notability of the band, by quoting relevant criteria and discussing it in detail 2 Establishing that the song is a notable song 3 From main page, the proposal for notability of songs 4 This song is propaganda 5 Evidence about the song popularity 6 Isn't it time for a decision?

[edit] Establishing notability of the band, by quoting relevant criteria and discussing it in detail

A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ etc) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:

• Has had a charted hit on any national music chart, in at least one large or medium-sized country.

Serbia is a medium sized country, and the song is a hit. There is apparently no online evidence that says that. However, here is a link from balkan repository project, [1] where there are only several relevant songs listed for the period of NATO bombing, and 3 of them are of index theatre (including the one article is about)

• Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one large or medium-sized country.

• Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country,[1] reported in notable and verifiable sources.

indeksovci su stalno na turneji (they are constantly on tours- refering to their frequent tours), reported by Blic news, a major Serbian newspaper, [2]. In fact they have recently visited Canada (see their web page, right hand side, where their trip to canada is mentioned on right hand side [3]), and have been touring ex-Yugoslavia since the 80s.

• Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable).

They have released two song albums, "Oprostajni koncert" and "Gotov je!" and numerous audio tapes with their performances. Weather label qualifies as indie, major or whatever (this is not American group) I do not know.

• Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...).

Yes, many newspapers mention them. Here are a couple of links from major Serbian newspapers: [4],[5]

• Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such.

N/A - they are notable on their own

• Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city (or both, as in British hip hop); note that the subject must still meet all ordinary Wikipedia standards, including verifiability.

• Has won a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno or Mercury Music Award.

answer to this is no. No grammy in Serbia, and I dont know if they have won awards for their satirical songs

• Has won or placed in a major music competition.

I think not.

• Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that page.)

• Has been placed in rotation nationally by any major radio network.

Their songs have been placed in rotation by many radio stations. They have had a regular show, Indexovo radio pozoriste, on Radio Beograd 202 (a major radio station in Belgrade) since the 80s

(it is mentioned in the above newspaper articles)

• Has been the subject of a half hour or hour broadcast on a national radio network.

Have had a regular weekly broadcast on Radio Beograd 202 for years (in fact, they are famous for this).

For composers, songwriters, librettists or lyricists:

• Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a musician or ensemble that qualifies above.

N/A - but yes, since the group has written texts for themself

• Has been the subject of a biography published as a book, or has several articles by at least 2 different authors in the peer reviewed publications.

I am not sure about this one - peer reviewed. But they are mentioned in numerous books, like the anthology of YU Rock-and-roll and I think their biografical data is there too

• Has had a work used as the basis for a later composition by a songwriter, composer or lyricist who meets the above criteria.

see above (this section really is the same thing, but for individuals, and it does not apply for the group)

• Has written a song or composition which has won or placed in a major music competition not established expressly for new comers.

I dont think their satirical songs were competing

• Has been listed as a major influence or teacher of a composer, songwriter or lyricist that meets the above criteria.

N/A

For performers outside of mass media traditions:

• Is cited in notable and verifiable sources as being influential in style, technique, repertory or teaching in a particular music genre.

N/A

• Has been a significant musical influence on a musician or composer that qualifies for the above

N/A

[edit] Establishing that the song is a notable song

Song notability Criteria, proposed guideline in wikipedia, relevant in this case Lets see what a proposal for a guideline (best that we have) says:

A song may be notable if it meets one or more of the following standards. If a song meets three or more of these standards, it is probably notable; if it meets two, it is a good candidate for notability, and if it meets one, it may border on notablity.

• Has appeared in the Top 20 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country

It has been a hit during nato bombing in Serbia, so certainly one of the 20 - this can be checked by contacting by e-mail radio stations b92 (www.freeb92.net), radio index, etc. who can confirm that the song was played during the bombing extensively. Also, listed here [6] as one of the few examples of art in the NATO period (this link is perhaps more relevant in establishing media campagn); as there are no online links establishing popularity directly, verifiability can be best met with contacting the journalists - freeb92 is one of the most popular radio stations, and it is the way to proceed and confirm what Serbian people here say for those who dispute their claims.

• Charted in the Top 100 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country, for at least six months (need not be consecutive)

I am not sure if this is formally met as there are probably not such charts, but in Serbia, it was popular for quite a few months during and after the bombing, well in the top 100; if there were some charts, it might be possible to dig them up - but system in Serbia is different, and what songs were broadcasted would be the best information that exists. But, under reasonable interpretation, this is clearly true.

• Is a song that helped define a specific genre of music

Not the case

• Is the signature song of a performer

Yes, index theatre have made few dozen songs, and this is one of their most well known. one can verify that from the index theatre themselves (contact e-mail address provided above). I can also offer several links poiting to this. First link, from balkan repository project:

[7] - song is included in 3 Index hits during NATO war. Second, they have published CDs 'Gotov je!' and 'oprostajni koncert' on which this song is one of their 10 choices (the main hits of theirs) - it is a fairwall sort of compilation, so this testifies about the importance of the song for indexovci; you can google it, for instance here it is sold, [8] - note that the song is listed first!

• Is a historically notable song for being the first to do something interesting, stylistically or technologically

No

• Helped launch a notable record label

No

• Has been officially released in at least one remixed version and/or has been the subject of a music video that played on a major music network and/or was the subject of a major publicity campaign

Yes. It has been published on two compilations and there was a music video - as evidenced by the article from newspapers in '99, quoted above [9], that talks about music video being recorded, as well as a major publicity campaign - in fact, anti-nato sponsored propaganda effort; also evidenced in this newspapers article [10], corroborated by many users here.

• Has been placed on a "best of" or "most influential" list from a major music media source

I am not exactly sure what is meant here - probably not (what is a major music media source). It has been among "best of" (or the best of) Index songs, is one of the "best of" NATO-war songs, it is on the compilation Oprostajni koncert (evidence provided) but I am not sure if it meets formally the criterion. It was not considered "influential" in some musical sense though.

• Has been downloaded a high number of times through digital download websites

This is also the case. Numerous tribute pages and mp3 links for it provided source for download, and it has been downloaded by many users in ex-Yu and Serbs in the world. However, what high number of times means, is relative. The exact quotes might be available from some sites, like nostalgija.com [11] - warning - this site has popups; it is a site where much of the ex-yu music can be downloaded (piracy or not - it is the way many people get music from such sites, and one can get a quote from them and get an idea about relative popularity of the song); there are other sites that offer free download, some mentioned above.

• Is a particularly well-known song from a piece of musical theater, radio, film or television

As Indexovci are also a comic theater troup, they have incorporated this song in piece of theatar - that is what they do with all of their songs. No quote yet though - might be available from the indexovci group directly; we have their e-mail, so this is verifiable. also, there is a video of their play with the songs - sold here, cover shown and a synopsis, testifying about this:[12]

The synopsis: Snimak predstave u Banjaluci odrzane 2001 godine .Na ovoj kaseti cete cuti I sve ove pesme obrade -El kondor pada,Sta ce mi zivot bez tople vode,Narasli su dugovi,Kada pocnem drugi dnevnik ja,Madlenka,Ja sam ja I oni su oni,Mi smo mi,Donatori gde ste da ste,Govovi se da me vavas,Lepa li je Dano vlast u krugu dvojke,Taze tursija,Sanjala sam nocas da te nema,Zazmuri,Doslo je do krvi,Ne odlazim,Kad sam gladan,Igra ruski rulet srpska Jugoslavija,Zamislim zivot u kom enosis nove cipele,Prica o Bobi Vladackom,Kasno je za brzu prugu,Stranci u Peci

Translates: a recording of the play held in Banja Luka in 2001; you will get to hear their songs: El kondor pada (notice it was listed first), Sta ce mi zivot bez tople vode (what do I need life with no hot water), Narasli su dugovi (debts have grown)...(list of other songs performed during this musical play).

In short, it seems that there are quite a few criteria met, and some are completely documented at this point as well. So, it reiterates the notability claim; nothing to say of the larger war context. BabaRera 16:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

(old comment below; up is disussion from the main page, per proposed guideline)

Note that there are no guidelines for this in wikipedia. However, a prominent song of a notable band should be notable.

I can offer several links poiting to this. First link, from balkan repository project: [13] - song is included in 3 Index hits during NATO war.

Second, they have published 'oprostajni koncert' on which this song is one of their 10 choices (the main hits of theirs) - it is a fairwall sort of compilation, so this testifies about the importance of the song for indexovci; you can google it, for instance here it is sold, [14]

[edit] From main page, the proposal for notability of songs

What about [Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Notability and Music Guidelines/Songs]? Balcer 20:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC) To quote it: There is consensus that the vast majority of songs do not deserve an article specifically devoted to them. Most songs should redirect to another relevant article, such as on the album the song was originally released on, or the artist in question. Songs should only have an individual article if there is enough verifiable material to warrant a detailed article. If a song has a body of published criticism, the song should probably have an article on Wikipedia. Even if a song is otherwise notable, there is no reason to start an article which can only say the name of the song and who performed it.. Balcer 20:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC) So, if that is a criterion, than it is more relevant that it has some individual relevance than that if it was a hit. The relevance of the song is that it was an expression of a spirit of defiance during the war. That is larger cultural connotation. This context is confirmed in the links provided - the balkan repository project about nato art, the article in Serbian above (explaining the context) as well as what people from the Balkans say. It is not just any song or even hit. It is a song with much more background and significance than just a name and who preformed it. The relevance of this song indeed is greater for Serbian (and other Balkan) people because of this larger social context - it was a phenomenon that it illustrates that makes it notable. This is what makes it different from other songs, and this is, as you can see, why people care about it. BabaRera 21:03, 8 May 2006 (UTC) Also, what you quote is just a proposal and not an official guideline

NOTE: The listed criteria from that page are discussed in previous paragraph in detail. It is clear that according to this the song is notable, and that the claims on which this depends are either referenced or can be verified by emailing radio stations like b92, the indexovci themselves etc. Numerous Serbian, and also Croatian, Slovenian wikipedians, and even some from abroad have testified on the main deletion page that this is indeed the case, and so, according to WP:AGF, it should be taken as a proof (means for verifying are available; all claims are verifiable in principle, by checking broadcast etc. and it is undue burden to require all the e-mail confirmations and non-online references, that these users claim to exist, in short time; verifiability should be matter of principle, not actual scanning of books and obtaining other proofs about that, but allownig enough information for anyone to check; besides, there are tags to be placed if notability has yet to be demonstrated, deletion is wrong - since, by WP:AGF a word that it can be done should do for the purposes of AfD - discarding the claims of all the people who heard about the song or are from relavant area, spreading few countries (that were even warring against each other) that listen to songs in Serbian, is really violating WP:AGF in my opinion. BabaRera 16:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

The following link gives data about this context [15] - it is translated at the main page, at discussion with Zoe and Dcabrilo.

Again, as I said at the main page, it only establishes existence, not notability. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

what would establish notability for you? there is no accepted guidline here. The song was broadcasted a lot at the time, etc. - as many people from Serbia claim. Such claims can be verified, by contacting radio stations in question. Are you not assuming good faith with regard to claims of people who are saying that the songs were broadcasted? The radio schedules are documented, and so are newspapers etc, and they do not have to be online to be verifiable BabaRera 00:08, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This song is propaganda

This Song is a Serbian propaganda agais NATO. The text of the song is atacing the West civilisation.--Hevnonen 22:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Even if true, that is not relevant for the deletion discussion. BabaRera 22:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with BabaRera on that. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

At firs this song is not famos in English L. but in Serbian L.--Hevnonen 07:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I too agree with BabeRera on this. Moreover, it does not matter whether the song is famous in English. It is at least famous in the Serbian language. Also there are many famous non-English songs out there as well. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 08:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence about the song popularity

There are a few newspapers that have still articles from 1999 online, but there are quite a few testimonial pages that testify about song's popularity. For instance, [16], and many other google hits testify that people cared about this song.

That link just says the song exists. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It says that this guy considered it important enough to put it on his war-related page. It can serve as a source about itself, per wiki policies, and it indeed is mentioned here as a source about the existence of fan pages, proving that song was liked and connected with the bombing sentiment. Not only that the song exists (in fact, it does not serve as much of a proof for that, as it can be used only as a primary source about itself; unlike newspaper articles, that mention the song, and the CD, which is being sold, that prove the song existance, strictly according to policies here )BabaRera 00:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It says that this guy liked the song, it doesn't say anything about whether or not anybody else did. I can create a blog listing my favorite songs, but that's nothing concerning their notability. User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It says only about what that guy feels, true. But it is not the only link like that. If it does not prove that song is notable, it certainly coroborates the claims made by Serbian editors. Evidence as this are accepted even at courts, perhaps as circumstantial evidence, but still - to say that google hits and tribute pages say nothing about the notability of the song is simply not true. This particular page is clearly motivated by bombing, was not edited since 2000, and hence says a lot about the context and background of this song - if by a means of an example. But it is not the only example. Number of Google hits does say something about relevance, and in fact is frequently used to quick-check notability on many AfD pages; so I dont see why this argument would carry no weight here! BabaRera 02:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Isn't it time for a decision?

Doesn't some administrator type want to step in and render a judgment on this? Last time the trigger finger was so itchy, after all. Profnjm 04:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a five day period for discussion. The article is kept unless there is concensus not to keep it. How is that concensus (to delete it) established, is up to admin to judge. It is not a vote, and it has to take into account the discussion. However, in cases when there is no concensus the article remains, per wikipedia policies. BabaRera 05:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)