Talk:Aviation accidents and incidents

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Contents 1 Odds 2 Other Countries 3 article rename rationale 4 Systematization of causes needed 5 Recent Intro rewording "Edits for style" 6 Aviation-Safety.net up-to-date? 7 Recent crashes and Well Known Aviation Accidents 7.1 Specific events 8 Commercial airliner accidents - by plane type? 9 Commercial airliner accidents - by manufacturer? 10 Lost 11 Worst continent in the world to fly from 11.1 ============== 12 Hindenburg 13 Payne Stewart Crash 14 Quotation 15 Merging with Air disasters 16 merge 17 issue with causes 17.1 ========= 18 a BIT much... 19 Category naming? 20 Military "accidents"

[edit] Odds

Anyone know how many commercial planes crash relative to how many their is that take off?

[edit] Other Countries

How do other countries - like say China, Japan, Russia, or the Middle East handle aviation incidents? KyuuA4 03:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] article rename rationale

It's an incident if no one is killed. The intro section gives accidents examples, not incidents. Later today I'll write a definition pre-intro distinguishing aviation accidents from incidents. BACbKA 16:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) done BACbKA 20:40, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Systematization of causes needed

The article could benefit from a systematic list of accidents and incidents, as well as corresponding common prevention approaches. A lot of this can be refactored from the existing free-form text. BACbKA 20:40, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

This article should be a list instead, with a seperate article for each accident. --NoPetrol 21:48, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Intro rewording "Edits for style"

Please have a look at the last edit, rewording the intro. I do not feel it imroves the style as

1. in the new wording, it sounds as NTSB is the initial source of the definition of the concept, while the previous edition just gave the NTSB the credit for their wording of a pretty much common sense definition
2. the ":" and paragraphs breaking the flow unduly (IMHO) expand the weight of the material beyond what (again IMHO) it deserves
3. also in the expanded form, the second "is:" is more ambiguous (whether it's an NTSB def or just a well-known fact).

The mdash expansion into the words it implies is fine by me, I am unsure it's better that way, but it certainly isn't worse.

What do you folks think? BACbKA 11:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Aviation-Safety.net up-to-date?

The article links to Aviation-Safety.net, which seems to be terribly out-of-date:

• I couldn't find the recently crashed Helios Airways in the database (database:cyprus operators)- even though they already had a poor safety history before the recent incident (3 people hospitalized for probably the same reason now 121 people died: compression issues). This means that if somebody wanted to personally assess the safety of this particular airline before boarding the plane, he would find there was no problem, and might have been killed because of this omission (The wikipedia didn't have an entry about the earlier incident neither, but then again the wikipedia doesn't claim to be a great source for aviation safety issues).

Further omssions that I found particularly troubling in very limited testing include:

• MNG_Airlines which is missing here (no safety problems so far, but there should be entries for all major airlines nonetheless), and
• Birgenair, whose big crash is missing here.

I therefore suggest that we remove the link and add a better source. Peter S. 17:12, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

• • Okay, since nobody was against this, I'm removing it now. Peter S. 22:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent crashes and Well Known Aviation Accidents

The article lists a number of current accidents which, while I don't wish to diminish the tragedy of the events, will probably in time come to be not seen as all that "well-known". They are only well known at the moment, because of all the coverage they are getting. It's probably OK to leave them in for now, but let's keep an eye on it and remove those that are 'just another crash' in due course. Otherwise we'll just end up with a list of all aircrashes, which isn't what the article is for. Graham 05:51, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I've searched for a reasonable place to write my view towards the safety of accidents and incidents in aviation. I wonder why plane parachutes has not been invented, Well, i've better surgestions. Mail me on ROMEOELLA2000@YAHOO.COM. or Call, 08033006883, JOHN UMUKORO.

It is redundant to list "well-known" crashes when there are separate articles with lists of them. 69.219.169.88 06:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

On the topic of recent crashes, I changed the recent CRJ-100 listing to a CRJ-200: http://news.delta.com/article10336.html -Peyton

If the Air India bombing is mentioned, surely the September 11th should be mentioned, too?

Actually, none of the specific airliner incidents should be mentioned. Separate articles already contain lists of the incidents. If every air disaster is going to be listed in this article, then that is unnecessary as a few articles already list individual incidents according to year, location, incident type, etc. 75.34.33.118 18:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and replaced the contents of this section with links to lists of Commericial Airliner incidents. Listed incidents can be found in those lists. KyuuA4 03:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, this list is being regenerated under "Specific Events". KyuuA4 21:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Specific events

• Cavalese cable-car disaster (United States Marine Corps EA-6B Prowler jet cut off cable of a cable-car, killing 20 people)
• Kegworth air disaster (Boeing 737 G-OBME crashed on the embankment of Britain's M1 motorway after an engine failure)
• Lockerbie air disaster (largest aviation accident in British history)
• Manchester air disaster (Boeing 737 caught fire on the ground after an engine failure)
• Munich air disaster (Airspeed Ambassador crashed attempting take-off during a blizzard)
• Staines air disaster (Trident stalled and crashed shortly after takeoff)
• Superga air disaster, aircraft crashed into the Superga hills outside Turin
• 2002 Tampa plane crash, aircraft deliberately crashed into an office tower in Tampa, evoking acute fears of terrorism so soon after 9/11.
• Tenerife disaster (2 Boeing 747s) 2 747 jumbos crashed into each other in extreme fog on the small island of Tenerife in the Canary Islands killing over 500 people becoming the worst accident in aviation history before 9/11
• October 11, 2006 New York City plane crash, which killed MLB player Cory Lidle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KyuuA4 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Commercial airliner accidents - by plane type?

How about having a list of accidents sorted by plane type, eg. all 747 accidents in one spot, all A320 accidents in another etc.? Peter S. 11:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial airliner accidents - by manufacturer?

Following Peter S. request, i think this could be interesting.

[edit] Lost

I can't believe someone actually tried to put the plane crash from Lost on this page! Don't forget Die Hard 2! Dyslexic agnostic 19:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe we need a list of fictional aviation accidents? :-) Peter S. 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Worst continent in the world to fly from

The worst continent in the world to fly from is Africa. In 2003, it generated only 3% of all the flights, but accounted for 28% of all the aircrashes.

Fact of the day at http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/qi/. violet/riga (t) 12:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Gimli Glider was not a disaster and should not be on this list. Thoughts?

John

[edit] ==============

Did the name of this page change, from "Air Disasters" to the present "Accidents and incidents in aviation?" If so, then the name change of the page, solves the above question. John is right: Gimli was not a disaster; it was a superb example of how super pilot judgment and skill saved the day.

1858 PDT, July 5, 2006

--EditorASC 02:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hindenburg

how about including the hindenburg disaster in the list of well-known aviation accidents? seems appropriate to me. User:Muschrott Mar 27, 2005

Added. Also, since it seems rather central to the theme of the article, it would be nice to see this entire section expanded, and perhaps grouped. Something like "Pre 1900, 1900-1920, 1920-1940, 1940-1960, 1960-1980, 1980-2000, 2000-2020, etc." (by decade would be too many categories(?)) I think a reasonable goal would be 10-20 entires per period. This would make a nice reference/redirect feature for the page. Al Biglan 22:49, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Payne Stewart Crash

I'd like to propose a correction to the language describing the Payne Stewart crash. The text is currently:

......crashed in South Dakota with no survivors; it is believed that all on board died from lack of oxygen when the plane suddenly lost cabin pressure early in the flight, while the plane was on autopilot.....

The accident investigation concluded that pressurization was gradually lost, causing hypoxia, which is insidious and hard to detect by those experiencing it. Thus the pilots never activated their own back-up oxygen masks or descended for a landing. It's a small change, but an important one to pilots; I'd like to replace 'suddenly' with 'gradually'.

-ShellBell-

[edit] Quotation

"Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater extent than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity, or neglect"

Does the above sentence add anything to the article? -FredrikM

Yes. Graham 04:03, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since somebody decided to edit out the quotation without further discusion, I've added it back in. Here are my reasons. The quote is familiar to all aviators, it is pertinent to the article, and it adds a little colour and interest. WP doesn't need to be dry, and this helps introduce the topic. Ask yourself the opposite - what does the article GAIN by NOT having it there? Graham 22:44, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That quote is also in Air Disasters by Stanley Stewart - Arrow - 1986/89 - ISBN 0-09-956200-6

In World War 1, as aircraft came into wider use, attempts were made to reduce the accident rate. Reports of incidents were circulated amongst airmen to help improve knowledge. One RFC summary admonished that ‘accidents during the last three months of 1917 cost £317 10s 6d - money down the drain, and sufficient to buy new gaiters and spurs for each and every pilot and observer in the service!’ A statement on flight safety pronounced at the time clearly outlined the problem. ‘Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.’ The same comment is as valid today as it was then, and over the years much effort has been expended in overcoming the problems

On the subject of books I can also recommend: Aircrash Detective: the Quest for Aviation Safety: An International Report by Stephen Barlay - 1969 - Hamilton - ISBN 0241015081 which has information on some of the lesser-known aircrashes prior to 1969.

Ian Dunster 10:45, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merging with Air disasters

I believe that Air disasters should be converted to a redirect page to Accidents and incidents in aviation. The latter article is already well established, and provides a plethora of links to topics on the NTSB, individual incidents, etc. The creator of Air disasters can be a useful resource in filling in any gaps in the information that already exists. Any other thoughts?--Brianvdb 04:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good mate, but can u give me some time to finish some more work on it then i will probably merge it... ok, sound alright?

Ok, I merged the two pages, and added some new features to this page also... The NTSB section and a photo gallery that can be added to at any time== :)

that works great!

[edit] merge

shouldn't the article be merged into:

List_of_accidents_and_incidents_on_commercial_airliners_grouped_by_year

Marminnetje 19:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Come on, NO!

This page is clearly of an above order the two pages work very well with each other i think.

That's why they should be merged. Marminnetje 14:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] issue with causes

The percentages in the causes section equal 108%. It is impossible for ANYTHING to equal over 100%.

Not true. Professional sports people regularly give 110%. Stevage 16:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] =========

I added studies by Boeing, which shows the rate of crew error (as primary cause of accidents) to be continually declining.

EditorASC 01:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] a BIT much...

Is there really a need for THAT many entries under the Well-known aviation accidents heading? The section is longer than the rest of the article and has FAR too many entries, some of which carry as much detail as the article on the specific crash itself. I propose either of 3 things:

1) Making this section its own page (though there already seems to be similar pages, under the "See also" section...

2) Keeping a maximum of 7-10 of the most well-known and/or significant of plane crashes

3) Keeping the entire list as is, but make the details more consistent. Details should include nothing more than the name of the plane(s), where it crashed, how many deaths/survivors, and a small explanation of how the crash occured. There is no need for a minute-by-minute description of the events that led to the crash itself, as is the case with many of the entries. --Crabbyass 23:47, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category naming?

• Thought the discussion, Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_12#Category:French_air_disasters, would benefit from input from contributors here -- MrDolomite | Talk 01:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military "accidents"

It doesn't seem appropriate to put military helicopter crashes in the same article - that group of helicopter crashes in the Iraq war just seems way out of place. How to divide them up, "Accidents and incidents in civilian aviation"? Stevage 16:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I see quite a few other problems with the article as it currently stands. In a while I think I'll be bold and chop out some of the dead wood. --Guinnog 16:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)