Talk:Avro Lancaster

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Avro Lancaster is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

Avro Lancaster has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Contents 1 Stub 2 Machine guns 3 Doubly hampered? 4 Oh really? 5 Contextual background? 6 Soviet Lancasters 7 Initial design request. 8 Avro Lancaster Image Gallery 9 Survivors - new article?

[edit] Stub

I'll flesh this stub out tonight when I have reference books handy. Unless Maurie beats me to it, of course.

[edit] Machine guns

Somebody wrote the Lancaster has 10 machine guns, but I count only 8. Feel free to change it back if someone knows better. DJ Clayworth 19:13, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Some versions did carry 10 machine guns (.303 and .50 cal Brownings mix) in four turrets. Some only had three turrets (and some only two) with .303s only. Moriori 19:48, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

The armament to some extent depends on when during the war you are talking about. The Lancaster, (and Halifax) as-designed, had a mid-under 'turret' * with two .303 Brownings, (the Stirling had a retractable 'dustbin' type) but as the aircraft was subsequently used mostly at night the 'turret' was at first removed and later not fitted at the factory, the aperture being faired-over - the turret was discontinued because the optical sighting system (designed for daytime use) was unusable at night, it not being possible to see anything through it making the turret just useless weight (this was also why RAF 100 Group special-duties B-17 Flying Fortresses had the Sperry ball turrets removed, as the visibility from the turret at night was almost nil) The mounting position was later used to fit the H2S radar scanner.

* This 'turret' should not be confused with the guns fitted on some squadrons later in the war to deal with the threat of the Schräge Musik attacks - these were usually fitted in apertures cut in the fuselage floor and used the normal sights fitted to the gun, and consequently had a much better view in low light conditions.

BTW, the 14,000lb 'normal' bomb load figure usually given is a 'brochure' one for an aircraft with the mid-under turret and all the designed armour fitted. When the turret was deleted and most of the armour removed * (the Luftwaffe night fighters were using such heavy cannon armament by this time that the additional armour was again, just useless weight) this allowed the bomb load to be increased. During the course of the war the Maximum Take-Off Weight was increased to first 63,000lb, then 65,000lb, and by 1943/4 the aircraft's MTOW had been further increased to 68,000lb and the maximum bomb load was by then 18,000lb, which accounts for this figure sometimes being given. Incidentley, this is why Harris spoke of (paraphrase) 'continuingly increasing the load without breaking the camel's back' of the Lancaster.

(Grand Slam Lancasters were loaded to 72,000lb and had to be flown 'carefully' until the load had gone)

* The only armour that was retained was the armour plate directly behind the pilot's seat and the armoured doors in the fuselage.

Ian Dunster 14:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Doubly hampered?

It says this: "The resultant aircraft was the Avro Manchester, a disappointing aircraft that was doubly hampered by the unreliable engines"

I hate to nitpick (well, alright, I don't really) but if the duff engines are the first - er - hamperation, what's the other one? I mean I do understand it was hampered by engine reliability but I don't see how it got doubly hampered. Can someone please enlighten me? Otherwise I think it needs either an explanation of what the other hamperoidality is, or the "doubly" taking out. Nevilley 16:24, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

PS The first person to say "ah well you see it was doubly hampered 'cos it had two engines" gets a slap round the head for being silly. Ow!

At the risk of a slap, I think the problem was that it had two engines rather than four, even if the Lancaster's four were individually less powerful--Doctormonkey 19:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, but, with the greatest respect, the point to which this query from 24/4/04 refers was fixed by an edit on 13/4/05, and the question of the "double hamperation" was never resolved and is not by this edit on 2/12/06. 82.45.248.177 01:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of a slap, I have to agree with Doctormonkey, more or less. The hamperations (ouch) were 2 engines that weren't sufficient for the task, besides being devilishly unreliable, where the Lanc had 4 less-powerful (but more total than 2 Manchester) & reliable. Trekphiler 15:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oh really?

"Unlike the Halifax, it was not used during the war for duties other than bombing."

I took this line out as I recently seen a programme on BBC that stated Lancasters took part in Operation Manna where food was dropped in Holland for the civilian population, and footage proved that they did.Escobar600ie 19:18, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I think what the writer meant was that unlike the Stirling and Halifax there was no cargo/transport version of the Lancaster. The Stirling and Halifax were both produced in cargo versions (the Halifax transport was called the Halton) and both were also used as glider tugs, but the Lancaster was only used for the purposes of bombing - I suppose if one wants to be pedantic one could say that dropping food to the Dutch in Operation Manna was a form of bombing, albeit a friendly one! Ian Dunster 13:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, no. The Lancastrian (Avro 691) originated in Canada (yay!) in 1942. It was used as a VIP transport (by Churchill, as I recall). I should also mention Stirling, Halifax, Hampden, & Lanc were all used for mining ("Gardening"). Trekphiler 15:58 & 16:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contextual background?

The article could really do with a little more contextual analysis:- how it compared to other heavy bombers of the time, its relative effectiveness, strengths, weaknesses in campaigns etc etc.Simmyymmis 02:36, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Lancasters

Found this web page: [1] with a story about two repaired Lancs serving with the Soviet Union after Operation Paravane. Also a mention in the text for Lancasters: [2]. Anyone confirm this? Folks at 137 10:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Info confirmed. I've read that article and saw photos. Vladimir Kotielnikov is well known researcher and whole story was confirmed by another researcher - Carl-Fredrik Geust - in his book from "Red Stars" series published by Apali Oy. Piotr Mikołajski 02:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Initial design request.

I'm a bit confused: the article states that the origins of the Lancaster lie in the design for a twin-engined heavy bomber submitted in response to a request for a twin-engined medium bomber? Did someone at Avro not understand what was wanted? I think a little tweaking is in order here. Red Sunset 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avro Lancaster Image Gallery

Hello,

I have started doing an aircraft image gallery(hobby project) and I think it will be useful to add a link to it here. I have tried this in the past but I broke some rules (you are not allowed to add links to your own website) so it was deleted by another user (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TAG.Odessa#Why_are_you_deleting_the_external_links.3F).

The solution, according to the 'external links' rules : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL#Advertising_and_conflicts_of_interest is to "please consider mentioning it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it".

Avro Lancaster : http://www.aircraft-list.com/db/Avro_Lancaster/26/

So please look over that page and if you think it is useful then add it, if not then just ignore this message.

Thanks

Best wishes

Nekhbet 09:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survivors - new article?

Hi all,

What does everyone think about moving the "Survivors" section to a completely new article? I see in the peer review that in its current form it was thought to make the article unbalanced. Replacing it with a short section such as "there are around 17 known Lancaster survivors. For more details see..." would seem to be a good solution. EddieWalters 19:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Cut down the section, but that's not the real problem with this article- it needs more sourced information. I would leave the section as is since there are only two flying Lancasters and a dozen and a half more survivors. Bzuk 20:24 23 February 2007 (UTC).

There are actually (depending on how you count it!) up to 26 surviving Lancasters. This includes a few aircraft that are just parts (ranging from cockpit sections that are on display to aircraft that are just components - but there are around 17 complete airframes. The section as it is at the moment is very incomplete. See http://www.warbirdregistry.org/lancregistry/lancregistry.html for a list of surviving Lancs.EddieWalters 23:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree there is too much information on survivors with 900 words out of approximately 3000 words devoted to a small number of aircraft. My contention is that for a influential aircraft such as the Lancaster, there should be a larger, more referenced article, much akin to the P-51 and P-38 articles. How about setting about to increase the article to a major work, and still chop down the Lancaster survivor section. Bzuk 23:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC).