Talk:Bachelor of Laws

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Law Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field.
???	This article has not yet received a quality rating on the assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received an importance assessment on the assessment scale.

Contents 1 Brief cleanup attempt 2 Abbreviation 3 Layout 4 Becoming a lawyer 5 Abbreviation again 6 Postgraduate? 7 English 8 Pat Robertson's Bachelor of Legal Letters from Yale 9 Honorary 10 Variations on the LL.B

[edit] Brief cleanup attempt

Much of the original text seemed culled from an external site [1]? Over a short time though the article will probably go in new, different directions.

Removed: [re foreign law degrees holders need] "...often study to receive an LL.M., the masters degree equivalent, before qualifying for bar admission procedures."

This was (probably) wrong in most areas. Admission procedures do vary between states {ABA link1, link2} but the American Bar Assoc. state on their site the LL.M is not considered a criterion for admission. I rewrote that part and made it fairly broad but'd welcome further clarifications.

I think a single article referring to the LL.B as used across common law territories (current structure) is best. Most of the article fused the application of the degree in the UK/US/etc clearly. I made a few general corrections and cleanup changes though esp. for clarity/inconsistency; plus added section headers. Also removed stub boilerplate - was this premature? Whitehorse1 23:31, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviation

Though (to my surprise, as it goes against normal abbreviation conventions) the degree is usually abbreviated "LL.B.", it's also sometimes abbreviated "Ll.B." (see [2], [3], [4], [5], [Ll.B], etc.). I've added this to the article. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's perhaps superfluous to mention the "alternate" version in parentheses. The "correct" abbreviation in fact is a lower-case 'l'; however, both variants are not correct (strictly speaking). When I (re-)wrote the article I opted for using upper-case simply because that version is far more commonplace. Didacticism is well and good but so is being understood and easy on the eye ;).
If you (or anybody else) wishes to change all occurrences in the article to use a lower-case 'L' that's fine of course. I do feel, personally, that a note in parentheses explaining it frequently appears in lower-case form (especially given its bold type) just adds clutter to the article IMO. :) Whitehorse1 05:20, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone ever alternates the two... I don't really understand your objection, though; there are two usages, so the article uses the more common but mentions the less common. That's surely Wikipedia (and general reference-work) convention. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:56, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I have included the British (and British-derived) LLB. Given that LL.B is almost certainly the US version and, as the LLB isn't prominent in the US, I think it's appropriate to include LLB. Note that this is also consistent with the LLM page. --- Nicknz 03:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Layout

My immediate last edit changed some layout elements. Since these're potentially contentious edits & some reverted edits made by a far more experienced Wikipedian than I... some explanation is probably due from me.

1. {{TOCRIGHT}} template removal. This template is - or was the topic of a heated discussion recently. In terms of this specific article I believe it doesn't fit well and skews the article into having an angular appearance. Thoughts?
   
2. noeditsection. My edit also re-inserted this. I feel more strongly bold about this issue. The article's by nature a short one. Without the supression of sectional edit links there are six edit hyperlinks on a brief page. Additionally, one section for example is just two short sentences/two lines long - having an edit link there just looks "silly". Whitehorse1 05:59, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

1. I've no feelings either way about the "tocright" issue.
2. I do, however, think that the edit links should be returned; I don't share your aesthetic response to them, and they can be very useful (aside from other considerations, people who use them at least have something in the edit summary, even if they don't add a proper summary). What do other editors think?
3. With regard to your other edits: Wikipedia policy is that the summary has no heading; the "LL" should be in inverted commas (to show that it's being mentioned not used), not italics (which don't really mean anything). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:47, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Becoming a lawyer

I've just moved this (after tidying and wikifying it) from the article:

"In Commonwealth countries in which where the distinction still exists between barristers and solicitors, a barrister generally takes and passes all the requirements of a solicitor, but also takes the Bar exam (so called because a barrister traditionally stood at a horizontal bar and spoke, hence "bar table", "bar jacket", etc.). In these countries, a barrister has to take various courses, and is then under a year's supervision of the "reading programme", so-called because the new barrister reads (learns) under the guidance of a more senior barrister."

Could people correct it and replace it? I know that some of it is off-target with regard to the U.K., at least, but I'd rather someone more expert made the changes. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:28, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviation again

The alternative form "Ll.B." was removed from the article; I've reinstated it. For uses, see for example: "External Programme Subject Guides: Ll.B. - English Legal System", "they award Ll.B. degrees", "Mr. Kevin Sweeney, C.A., Ll.B ". --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Postgraduate?

User:Mel Etitis, where is the LLB considered a postgraduate degree? I'm aware of the Bachelor of Civil Law, but that's a different degree. A graduate-entry LLB is still considered an undergraduate-level degree at all universities I'm aware of. Cheers Natgoo 20:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've had a quick look around. It seems that some universities in the UK erroneously use 'postgraduate' when they mean 'graduate-entry'. I don't think this terminology should be reflected in this article, as the LLB is an undergraduate-level qualification regardless of the level of prior achievement of its candidates - thoughts? Natgoo 10:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing erroneous about the standard use (in this country, at least) of "postgraduate" to mean (surprise!) "after graduating" (from another degree), or what you call "graduate entry". As calling it an undergraduate degree would be misleading to some users (those from the U.K., at least), and it would seem that calling it a postgraduate degree would be misleading to others, wouldn't it be better not to label it in the summary (or to explain its status in full)?

Do you have any idea, incidentally, why a course would demand a first degree when it was no higher than a first degree? It's not a notion with which I'm familiar, and though there's doubtless a reasonable answer, I can't think of one. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Graduate entry first degrees are offered in all sorts of disciplines - law, social work, education, physiotherapy, medicine - is this really the first time you've come across the concept? As this article states, all LLB programs in Canada are offered this way. From the Australian Qualifications Framework implementation handbook:

"the graduate entry degree, which is a minimum of two years in duration, is specifically designed on the assumption of graduate entry, sometimes in a specified discipline, often as a shorter alternative to the standard four year (or longer) degree for initial professional preparation".

The level of qualification attained is that of a first degree in that discipline, but it's an accelerated program. All of the UK 'postgraduate LLB' programs I've seen are of this style. The use of the word 'postgraduate' as an adjective indicates a level of advanced study beyond that required for a first degree - a postgraduate legal qualification is (for eg) an LLM, and a person claiming a postgrad qualification when they have an LLB would be misleading, regardless of whether or not the program required a degree for entry. LLBs are not postgraduate qualifications. Natgoo 13:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

"is this really the first time you've come across the concept" Pretty well; you seem to be assuming that what happens in one country must happen in all.

"LLBs are not postgraduate qualifications." Again, you're using the term "postgraduate" in its Canadian & Australian (?) acceptation in order to make a universal generalisation — but that's the whole point: the term means different things in different places. In the U.K., an Ll.B. is a postgraduate degree because "postgraduate" means that it's taken (of necessity) after another degree. This is why I suggest that we don't use any simplifying term in the summary, but actually explain the situation. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Colloquially that may be true (although I've found evidence to the contrary - a quick look at a few uni websites offering a 'postgraduate LLB' find all list an LLB as a requirement on the generic 'postgraduate entry requirements' page) but the Framework for higher education qualifications and the Higher Education Statistics Authority disagree - the graduate status of the individual is irrelevant to the degree's classification as an undergraduate-level qualification. This article is about the LLB, which is not a postgraduate-level degree - referring to postgraduate students in an LLB program may be correct, but the LLB is always an undergraduate degree, as it is the first qualification needed for practice (or the attainment of further, postgraduate qualifications). Natgoo 20:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I find the term "postgraduate" to refer to the LLB is confusing. In the U.S. and Canada, postgraduate degrees refer to master's and research doctorate degrees. An expression used in Canadian academic circles to describe undergraduate programs such as law, medicine, dentistry (yes, the M.D. and D.M.D. are considered undergraduate degrees in Canada), etc. that require a degree or partial study towards one are referred to as second-entry programs (rather than postgraduate programs). http://www.google.ca/search?q=second-entry+degree+law&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N

--Aquarius Rising 14:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, this misses the point of what I've been saying; I agreed that the term will be misleading to one set of readers however it's used, because it's used differently in different places — therefore we shouldn't use it (or "undergraduate"), but should explain the situation in full. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:00, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is fine as it is now - any further explanation is likely to be confusing. Natgoo 20:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English

I'm not clear why my edits making the article's English consistent were reverted. The article was in U.K. English, the only exception being "programme", which appeared in both the U.S. and U.K. spellings. Aside from the question of consistency, the article states that the Ll.B. is no longer offered in the U.S., and the majority of the article concerns the U.K. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Your edits were to revert from my North spelling that I inserted when adding reference to the LL.B. "program" in Canada. So I was not reverting; I was restoring status quo. Your edit was marked 'tidying'; I don't see how that includes a change in the spelling of "program" from North American (US/Canada) to British spelling. The LL.B. is still offered in Canada and I had added content regarding the LL.B. program in Canada. --Aquarius Rising 22:35, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: I don't understand what you mean when you say that the article is mostly concernly the U.K. - it concerns other common countries as well. I agree there is a long section on qualifying law degrees in the U.K and sections haven't yet been done for other countries, but that's just a matter of time; the qualifying degrees section should probably be carved out and put into a separate article (e.g., list of British law schools) or moved into an article concering becoming a barrister or solicitor in the U.K. --Aquarius Rising 22:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

There is significant Australian content in the beginning of the article (including content about the University of Melbourne programs that I've just added). By the way, look up the link for the University of Melbourne law school website and you'll see that they spell "program" the same way as Canadians now do. --Aquarius Rising 00:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The fact remains that "programme" was spelt both ways in different places, and the usage needed to be made consistent; as the rest of the article was in U.K. English, general consistency was served by making it "programme" throughout. I'm puzzled that you're so incensed about this; is there some implication that I'm missing? (Oh, and making spelling consistent is a perfect example of tidying.)

I've just checked the History, and the article was originally written in U.K. English (changes from verbal "practise" to "practice", for example, were made later, without explanation). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I see that Aquarius Rising has simply ignored the above, and reverted the spelling again. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Aquarius Rising also spent much time yesterday expanding and improving the article, for which you acknowledge no credit to him. I note that you mention in your edit summary that you reverted from U.S. to U.K. spelling. I used Canadian spelling (which also happens to be Australian spelling, and coincidentally U.S. spelling). This article is about the LL.B. (a degree found in most common law countries and some non common law jurisdictions. No reason to favour U.K. spelling as it is just one of the common law countries. By the way, the UK-centric material was moved to Legal education in the United Kingdom which is where the preexisting UK usages mostly were. --Aquarius Rising 17:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

One expects fellow edits to improve articles; one doesn't expect them to ignore good-faith Talk page discussion and revert. Normal Australian spelling is "programme" — see, for example, Google; it's difficult to gauge the popularity of the U.S. spelling there, because of the occurrences of the computer-related term "program". Canada is also difficult, because of the French sites, but Google indicates that "programme" is pretty common there too. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 07:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

For the record, aside from our disagreement on spelling of the word in question (and I assume you're not insinuating lack of good faith on my part just because I happened to disagree with your position on that question for reasons I've explained above - I'm closing that subject for now), I have made some very good edits to the Bachelor of Laws and Juris Doctor that have expanded and improved those articles. And I did the carveout of contents and put them into new namespace Legal education in the United Kingdom which I think greatly improves the readibility of the Bachelor of Laws article. --Aquarius Rising 23:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pat Robertson's Bachelor of Legal Letters from Yale

How does this degree, listed in the [Pat Robertson]] article, compare to the other legal degrees discussed in this article? Edison 17:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Honorary

That sentence is incorrect, some institutions award LL.D. as earned degrees:

The LL.D. is an honorary doctorate, while an S.J.D. or a D. JUR (Doctor of Jurisprudence) is an earned degree, differeing only in the institution offering the education.

[edit] Variations on the LL.B

Is anyone able to expand on this section to make it a little more useful? Perhaps another example or two would suffice. — Nicknz 21:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)