Talk:Bergen County, New Jersey
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Bergen County, New Jersey was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.
Date of review: 14 December 2006 |
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[edit] Bad formatting
Can someone with better wiki knowledge please fix the horrible formatting of the section breaks? There's presently a bunch of edit links in a row, each corresponding to a different section of the document. It's screaming for help. :) Shigpit 17:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Can you give a more specific example of the formatting issue? I'd be more than happy to work on the problem. Alansohn 17:27, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks Alansohn. The chapter headers don't have individual edit buttons in serial with their separator bars. I scroll down the page, and there are four [edit] links next to each other -- it seems this is occurring because of the way the pictures were placed. I'm using Firefox 1.5 if that helps you understand what I'm looking at. Shigpit 11:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
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- This happens when there are several images in a row aligned on the right side. I'm not sure if it is a CSS error or a rendering problem. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 17:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bad link
I'm a complete novice and could not figure out how to fix a bad link I found on this page: (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Bergen_County,_New_Jersey)
The shorcut that is supposed to link to the Bergen County Map from 1918 is trying to find the non-existent 1819 map (http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/BERGEN_COUNTY/BergenCounty_1819.jpg). A simple transposition, but I can't find the link nor the surrounding text at "edit this article at Wikipedia.org".
To the next skilled person that reads this: could you change the link behind "1918" under the "Historic maps of Bergen County, courtesy Rutgers Collection" heading to "http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/BERGEN_COUNTY/BergenCounty_1918.jpg". This shortcut DOES go to the correct page.
John Freund Ridgefield Park, NJ organguy@biggerthanabreadbox.com
- John, thanks for the note. reference.com contains an outdated snapshot of Wikipedia articles. The link to Rutgers no longer exists in the current version of the article. Instead, the map was uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons since it is in the public domain (published before 1923, therefore copyright expired). For the image, see here: Image:BergenCounty 1918.jpg. For the most-up-to-date version of Wikipedia articles, be sure to use the real page at http://en.wikipedia.org/ . Cheers. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 16:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] founding of Bergen County?
The article says the founding date of the county is 1675. The county seal shows 1683. Which is correct? --ChrisRuvolo (t) 19:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- I had never noticed the discrepancy, but I've seen both dates. An article describes the scenario that "In 1675 Bergen was included in a judicial district with Essex, Monmouth, and Middlesex counties. Later in 1683, Bergen was recognized as a county by the Provincial Assembly". I guess that would make the 1683 date the most reliable as the date of formation. I will change accordingly. Alansohn 01:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Awesome, thanks. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 02:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Blue Law section
A wiki should be filled with facts, not opinions or subjective statements. In the Blue Laws section of the Bergen Co wiki, Alansohn of Teaneck insists on keeping this text intact:
"It has produced the ironic situation that one of the largest and most popular commercial shopping cores of the New York metropolitan area is almost completely closed on Sunday (grocery stores are allowed to operate). Furthermore, Bergen County has significant Jewish and Muslim populations whose observant members would not be celebrating their Sabbath on Sunday with most of their Christian neighbors. The substantial Orthodox Jewish minority is placed in the position of being unable to shop either on Sunday (due to the blue laws) or on Saturday (due to religious observance)."
It is not necessary to include this text. The "blue laws" link provides all the essential information, including the fact this day "coincides with the Christian Sabbath". In fact, I believe this is more of an objective than a factual statement. In addition, it is not completely accurate. I have not seen a "substantial" jewish orthodox nor muslim population in Bergen Co.
- The information that I insist on keeping is specifically relevant to Bergen County. Blue Laws provide a mix of benefits and burdens. For those who don't observe any religiously-derived day of rest, the benefit of a day off from shopping may very well exceed the loss of a day of shopiing for most such people. For those who do a keep a day of rest on Sunday (mostly Christians) there would seem to be no burdens imposed whatsoever. For those who keep a day of rest on a day other than Sunday -- mostly Muslims (Friday), Orthodox Jews and adherents of certain Christian demoninations (Saturday) -- the enforcement of a "secular" day of rest on Sunday means that there are two days each week when they are forbidden to engage in commerce, a substatntial burden on adherents of those faiths. I am unsure of your familiarity with either Bergen County or Wikipedia; the fact that your only two edits were an unexplained removal of text from the Bergen County article and your post here on this talk page does not provide any context for your background or participation, so let me provide some information. Teaneck (my hometown, as you feel the need to point out) has an Orthodox Jewish population of approximately 4-5,000. Englewood and Fair Lawn also have Orthodox populations of a few thousand each. Fort Lee, Bergenfield, New Milford and Paramus are among communities with Orthodox communities of several hundred to a few thousand individuals. Teaneck is home to two mosques and others are in Englewood and elsewhere around the county. Teaneck has one of a number of Seventh Day Adventist churches, whose adherents observe their Sabbath on Saturday. You can pick your definition for "substantial" -- "fairly large", "having a firm basis in reality and being therefore important, meaningful, or considerable" or "having substance or capable of being treated as fact; not imaginary" -- any of which would indicate that there truly are "substantial" numbers of individuals in Bergen County who not only observe their own day of rest, but are also burdened with being forced to observe another day of rest on Sunday, whose "secular" purpose is firmly rooted in historical efforts to enforce the Christian Sunday day of rest. As such, I believe that there is ample justification to keep this objective information in the Bergen County article. If you haven't seen any of members of Bergen County's Orthodox Jewish community, join me for a lunch of pastrami on rye at Noah's Ark on Cedar Lane in Teaneck, which has about a dozen kosher dining establishments alone, and I'll point out a few. Alansohn 19:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
>I've lived in Bergen Co. for 40+ years. In the past I have resided in Teaneck and Fort Lee; currently in Hillsdale. I am well aware of the demographics of the communities you mention and probably every other in Bergen. I don't profess to be a scholar of Bergen, but I do know what goes on in the county. I am an engineer and have developed products for internetworking and the Internet since the early 80's so I am very familiar with various web technologies. I have only two edits (3 now) because I usually don't rely on wiki's for my information. They tend to provide false or inaccurate data. I just read an article that claimed the entropy of wiki's will reach a level at which point they will contain zero information (entropy by definition). I found it humorous - and now true. I happened to use this wiki for a quick lookup for some Bergen freeholder names. I saw the blue law section and changed it due to inaccurate statements. I do acknowledge there is an Orthodox Jewish community, as well as a growing Muslim community in Bergen Co. I have Orthodox Jew friends. However, I wouldn't say their numbers are substantial, unless you're located in an area where there is a concentration. For example, a person of Croatian descent may think there is a substantial Croatian population if they live in the area of South Eastern Fort Lee, Palisades Park, and parts of Cliffside/Fairview. However, this isn't true for most of Bergen. Typically substantial indicates a significant amount in numbers, relative to the whole. Therefore, I believe the blue laws section is inaccurate in it's "substantial" statement. Plus, adding the fact that it's an inconvenience to some people is more commentary and subjective in nature than a general purpose fact. Something I thought was inappropriate for a wiki (once again, increasing entropy means decreasing factual information). It's a blue law, no further commentary is needed. Mostly everyone knows what that is (if not, follow the link). Pastrami on rye sounds good. As a kid I recall shopping on Cedar Lane, going to deli's, Bischoff's, and Butterflake. Haven't been there in quite some time.
[edit] Good Article candidacy
I haven,t really read the article in a while, but it looks good to me. I'd love to get feedback on additional improvements that could be made. Furthermore, Bergen County has a thoroughly updated set of articles for the 70 municipalities, almost all of the 70+ school districts, and the overwhelming majority of high schools. Alansohn 04:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, even if it doesn't pass, I still think this will be a valuable exercise for the feedback we get. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 04:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] GA Failed
Further to the WP:GA nomination, this article does not pass WP:WIAGA criteria 1. b), c) 2. a) & 4. b).
Referencing is the most outstanding issue; "The substantial Orthodox Jewish minority is placed in the position of being unable to shop either on Sunday (due to the blue laws) or on Saturday (due to religious observance)" and other such comments, are designated as needing referencing and either should be or reworded.
There are other minor formatting issues; the History section contains multiple dates, facts and figures which need sources, and the Points of interest section would benefit from being a little less linked and converted from a long list, into either a table or normal prose. Per WP:LEAD, the opening section at one paragraph is too short also.
Consider expanding parts of the History section, especially more of the early history of Bergen County - Who were its first settlers (were they European/Native-American)? Why was it named Bergen County? Also this section in its current form reads like a list of facts, and would benefit from some referencing and collaboration from the editing community who take an interest in this article.
I should add this article is actually not far from GA status and is otherwise excellent (pictures, context, writing style etc). For high quality feedback to take this article forward however, visit Wikipedia:Peer review and follow instructions. Hope that helps, best of luck. Jhamez84 14:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for the feedback, we will work on this. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 15:06, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
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- My thanks for the pointers, as well. I have already addressed the first comment re Blue Laws, copyediting the text and providing additional sources for the causes and effects of Bergen County's blue laws and their effects on portions of the population. Let's discuss possible enhancements to teh other sections addressed regarding achieving GA status. Alansohn 15:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] County name origins?
It seems that Bergen County was named for the community of Bergen in what is now Hudson County. But where did that name come from? List of New Jersey county name etymologies (citing [1]) suggests either Bergen-op-Zoom, the Netherlands or Bergen, Norway. However, there are two other locations in the Netherlands with the name Bergen: Bergen, North Holland and Bergen (Limburg). Do we know where the name really comes from? Alan, does the Westervelt book provide any insight? Thanks. --ChrisRuvolo (t) 18:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- Chris, I'll add this one to my list. I have a another interesting book, "The Story of New Jersey's Civil Boundaries: 1606-1968", John P. Snyder, Bureau of Geology and Topography; Trenton, New Jersey; 1969, which goes through the creation of all counties and municipalities in the state. It has nothing on the sources of names, but it is a most useful source. Alansohn 18:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
