Talk:Bill W.

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Contents 1 Worst Wikipedia Page Ever? 2 Occult? 3 Physician heal thyself 4 Critique of pure bullshit 5 A photograph? 6 More Bill W assertions 7 Editing is needed to make a balanced bio 8 Information on the Occult's influence on Bill W. 9 Qoutations Overkill

[edit] Worst Wikipedia Page Ever?

Much of Wikipedia is done well; this article is an object lesson in how to everything poorly.

The article is hopelessly non-NPOV: it reads like AA literature, and was clearly written by a "true believer." One without a modicum of writing talent.

But more importantly, there are vast swaths of the article without a footnote, a citation, any kind of referential support whatsoever. I realize the writer just copied most of the drivel write of an AA pamphlet or their "Big Book." But couldn't somebody find a citation or two?

For what claims to be an encyclopedia this is laughably bad. And how could you possibly completely omit the massive amounts of criticism leveled at AA by the therapeutic community? For a layman's level perspective, see e.g. http://www.orange-papers.org/.

There are countless scholarly journals containing similar criticisms of Bill Wilson's organization. They don't merit a single mention?

Worst. Article. Ever.

Anonymous3243 13:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)So fix it. I won't be interacting with the page anymore so as to prevent a controversy from erupting.

There is no such thing as a terrible article, just an unfinished one. — DavidMack 21:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is part of WikiProject Ohio, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ohio. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

It was a ridiculously biased mess so I fixed it to reflect reality.

Bill Wilson and the Alcoholics Anonymous fellowship came to a mutual decision to decrease his involvement because of his extra-traditional activities;such as, promoting niacin as a cure for alcoholism.My source on that is "A.A. comes of Age".Tjc 06:34, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

His requesting whiskey on his deathbed, while controversial, merits inclusion.

Interesting. Have some evidence handy? Tribute2jimmyk 05:24, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[1] [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 21:06, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

With her own resentments about what may have been her father's alcoholism, Susan Cheever's claim is dubious. Also, the author(s) are clearly promoting the "alcoholics victorious" program, a Christian program, in this article.

[edit] Occult?

Was 151.205.71.71 confusing Alcholics Anonymous with the A∴A∴? Anyway, the Occultists category tag is now gone. Puck 07:41, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Physician heal thyself

I realized after sober [sic] reflection that in the article I LIBELED Susan Cheever by speculating that she was an adult child of an alcoholic John Cheever. The only basis I had for speculating that John Cheever was a drunk and that Susan is an adult child was Cheever's fiction, which may not constitute a roman a clef, and the seeming anger in Susan's bio, which may or may not have a Freudian content.

I have removed my speculation and I apologize if I have given any offense to the Cheever family or violated wikipedia's rules. And as always my text is Powerless over emendation.

Anonymous3243 11:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Critique of pure bullshit

Wilson never claimed that popping LSD was the peak spiritual experience of his life. It may have been the peak spiritual experience of the life of the clown who posted that claim, but Wilson clearly states that an experience he had while recovering from a bout before his trip to Akron was the key or peak spiritual experience of his goddamn life. This is confirmed both inside and outside authorized AA literature.

Wilson's debt to the Oxford group was exagerrated, and it had nothing to do with Christianity. Instead, he seems to have realized that their humility, not their faith in God, needed to be incorporated into AA.

Susan Cheever IS an adult child, and to the best of my knowledge, her Dad was a drunk who fucked up her life, and then had the nerve (as do many alcoholics, to pay the rent and support the ungrateful little brats, like Cheever and Ray Carver) to write about it. Her "documentation" is an adult child's cry of pain that her Daddy loved the bottle more than her, because she's confusing Cheever with Wilson. Furthermore, Bill W. is not the only recovered alcoholic to make, after twenty years off the sauce, a beeline for the bar, only to be saved at the last minute, whether by a spiritual thought or (it seems in the case of the incident Cheever uses to libel Wilson) Big Nurse.

Wikipedia doesn't have to be AA approved literature, but it needs to keep its facts straight. I have done major surgery on this article and the patient is recovering nicely.

Anonymous3243 11:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A photograph?

Could we perhaps put a photo of Bill on the page?

Pb1 02:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Done — DavidMack 22:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Bill W assertions

I'm in the club. I've read Susan's book and felt it had an objective tone, not hostile. I was startled by the events discribed on Bill's deathbed but I won't drink over it. It reinforced his humanity. One thing though. Did Bill receive royalties from the Big Book (capitalizing like the Bible for reverential effect)? If so, how do you sanction that with the tradition accounting his struggle with "a laborer is worthy of his hire and making money out of AA?166.68.134.175 17:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes Bill made royalties from the Big Book. He would become a wealthy man from his AA writings and I believe Lois and one of Bill's mistresses split an inheritance of around a million dollars. Mr Christopher 14:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The tone of the article is typical AA propoganda. Bill Wilson had a serious character defect, he took LSD 20 years into sobriety. The LSD experiments were intended for drunks initial phase of drying out. To add insult to injury, AA literature comments that Wilson advocated the drug enthusiastically. The operative word here is enthusiastic. Coming from a recovering guru, you would have to think very seriously before turning your will over to this program. Also, the OxFord groups Buchman was a vocal admirer of Heinrich Himmler and Buchman was on the cover of Time featured, "Cultist Buchman". AA is a cult. This article personifies condesending tone of AA propoganda and will not objectively call a spade a spade. The recovery rate after 10 years in AA is less than 5 %. That is not a successful program, that is an absolute failure rate. Would you want a batter at the plate pinch-hitting in the World Series with a batting average of 50 ?????? That batter would be looking for a new career.160.136.109.109 21:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

yo, can you please amend your edits with references? thats how it works around here. Fullmetaljacuzzi 22:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing is needed to make a balanced bio

This article sounds more like a history of AA than a bio of Bill. Bill was a great man, leader, and thinker, and also a man with deep flaws; that's what makes him interesting. The Cheever book seems to me to be fairly balanced and a good source for a better bio. — DavidMack 22:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Information on the Occult's influence on Bill W.

Controversial text removed: diff. I question the neutrality of this information as it seems like quote mining to overstate the importance of the "occult" in Bill W's life. While I recognize it's importance of WP:AGF, it's worth noting that this information appears to have been lifted from orange-papers.org (an anti-AA site) [2], [3]. The people originally posting this on orange-papers.org do not have a neutral point of view on the subject. At the very least, this information needs to be condensed, edited, spell checked, and properly wikifed. -- Craigtalbert 10:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Whether the information was posted on Fox news, Cnn, or the Orange Papers is not the basis to delete information.

It is not for you to determine that the source for information influences a view as neutral or not.

Certainly the fact that the files are sealed speaks volumes in itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.194.108.93 18:16, 30 March 2007 207.194.108.93

Anonymous ip guy, the way the article reads now is purely POV pushing and original research. You'd do well to learn how to make quality edits, especially if you want to inject this sort of material. It's all relevant and belongs but the way it is written is awful and conflicts with several Wiki policies. I do not have time to clean up your awful edits to this article, perhaps someone else does. Mr Christopher 20:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick taking out of the garbage in the occult section. i think it is slightly less POV and original research now. Mr Christopher 20:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

orange-papers.org is not considered to be a reliable source (see WP:RS). It's not only the bias, it's the poor quality of the writing, research, information and overstating it's importance (this information could easily be condensed in to about a three sentence paragraph). If you can do the necessary copy editing to bring it up to standards, I don't have a problem with it. But as you've currently written it, "The Importance of The Occult" is the largest section in this article. If that's not a violation of WP:NPOV, at the very least it's an overstatement. -- Craigtalbert 20:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Craig, even calling that section "the importance of the occult" is major POV/original research. I changed the title and deleted some of the obvious nonsense and you are correct, that section should be cut by at least 50%. Mr Christopher 20:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we should probably edit it down to two sentences and then link to a new article about Bill's interest in spiritualism and the occult that anonymous ip guy can write. Mr Christopher 20:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I just got the Cheever book "My Name is Bill W." out of the library, so I will be adding sourced information about the occult to Bill W. within the next few days. — DavidMack 21:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

<reduce indent> David, I believe Nan Robertson's Getting Better:Life Inside Alcoholics Anonymous and Ernest Kurtz's Not God:A History Of Alcoholics Anonymous touches on these subjects as well. Mr Christopher 21:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the most recent edits I made, and let me know what you think. It's very short, but gets the point across without the elaborate quotations and "leading." -- Craigtalbert 21:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You removed the Father Dowling Letter, an important Point. The letter should be added back in as the source material is not as ready available in some Libraries.

What needs to be included in the reference section along with Susan Cheever's work is Pass it On Pages 275 to 280 as they do describe the actual seances in particular page Bill's encounters with dead people p.276 and a detailed account a session with the ouiji board.Page 278

Or you could simply add that Bill encountered entity's from the other world P. 276 User--207.194.108.93 23:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Every book you referenced was included and listed in the reference section. The quotations are overkill. There's no reason to include more than this. -- Craigtalbert 23:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Qoutations Overkill

I disagree...quotes are used in numerous occassions. Quoatations and leading. I mean we are quoting Pass It On How AA message reached the world so how can that be leading. It is out of AA own resource material.

Not only that but the AA pass it on is not in the reference section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.194.108.93 00:26, 31 March 2007

It is, it's the second reference, take a look: Bill_W.#References. The number of times the quotes have been used, that their source is official A.A. literature, etc, is not a reason to include them. This has all ready been discussed. -- Craigtalbert 00:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)