Talk:Bill of attainder

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ran out of time. Worth mentioning in this article that asset forfeiture laws are essentially bills of attainder, and that (NPOV HERE) the reparations debate, as currently framed in the US, is also a demand for a bill of attainder--punishing individuals for "slavery" who have never been convicted of the crime (not to mention, who have never owned any slaves). --Len

Interesting point, Len. I hadn't heard that one before. --StinKerr

Contents 1 American usage question 2 Henry VIII 3 OlympiaDiego's post 4 Thomas More 5 Context as experimental feature 6 Relationship to Legislative Intervention 7 Removed text from U.S. section 8 Global perspective 9 why is this page still protected? 10 please add citation needed tags.

[edit] American usage question

It's seemed to me that the 'Murrican usage of BofA has been generalized even further, to bills which (whether naming a person or not) are intended to apply specifically to a single individual. Is that in fact the case, or is there some other constitutional prohibition against that that I'm forgetting? --Baylink 22:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is there any basis for claiming that the Terri Schiavo bill has some bill of attainder properties? Preisler 17:17, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Henry VIII

Was King Henry VIII the first monarch to delegate Royal Assent in relation to bills of attainder, or to any legislation at all? JackofOz 01:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OlympiaDiego's post

This was originally posted by OlympiaDiego to the main article. This type of commentary belongs on talk pages, not on main pages of articles, please confine further posts of this nature to the talk area only.

That means no reverting of the work by unstudied dummies or admins. Wikipedians willing to engage in serious legal scholarship or those providing very conservative (i.e. inclusionist) copyedit only please. No massive reverts or deletes. Feel free to also apply your skills to the massive amount of referenced material, in particular, the recent Bill of Attainder case law. It is those vital examples that bring this article to life and help to illustrate how this concept, rather dull though it may appear to the unstudied, is vibrant and applicable today in a time when mass media can effect all kinds of perversions if it is equipped with a pretty face or is otherwise prepared to effectively appeal to one of man's capital vices. The goal is to bring this article and the recent case law to Featured Article status via the established Wikipeida process while avoiding those interventionist trigger-happy admins, or at least the ones who know zero about law, the long arc of civilization or, for that matter, adulthood. Of course, intelligent input from both genders is welcome. It is a tragedy for the article that Catharine MacKinnon is too busy to help out. Please draw inspiration from her miraculous career and prepare the correct demeanor in your minds before you proceed.

Moved by Metros232 04:43 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have removed posts from indefinitely-banned user Amorrow, also known as Pinktulip, who has been editing under various IP addresses and sockpuppet identities, including that of OlympiaDiego. I kept the post from Metros232. AnnH ♫ 18:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas More

AFAICT Thomas More was not tried and executed with a bill of attainder. Elizabeth Barton was executed under such a bill and More had to explain his actions as a potential sharer in her guilt. But his explanation was successfull and he was not found guilty under that attainder. He was eventually to be executed but I think that was for refusing to take the oath under the Act of Succession which was treason ---->Chop,Chop. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Context as experimental feature

I'm pretty sure that this section is original research. In addition, it doesn't cite any sources, and it has a strong POV about a particular interpration of history.

I'm tagging it as npov-section, and will be deleting it shortly. Jaysbro 18:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Its been 9 days, and no cite is in evidence. I'm deleting the section under WP:OR and WP:BOLD Silas Snider (talk) 19:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship to Legislative Intervention

I removed the following text, because it appears to be original research, and is in any case barely comprehensible. -- Beland 22:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

To elaborate, "bill of attainder" can be eventually discovered in the crude tool of legislative intervention if such intervention is used to cut the Gordian knot of a difficult court case. In fact, it is nearly impossible to grant one side of a competently contested court case a privilege without at the same time penalizing the other side, thereby making most such interventions ipso facto unconstitutional. Surprisingly, this legal nit sometimes either escapes the attention of or sometimes is deliberately ignored by legislators; this can apply even to those legislators who are well-trained and otherwise conscientious lawyers. When legislators make such errors, as demonstrated by the Courts, only the constituency, or more generally the People, if they can comprehend the issues and maintain the attention span to remember such errors, have the power to take more decisive remedial action, and even then, provided that the current government of the United States stands and that all other legal proscriptions are obeyed, only at the polling booth, or upon other legitimate aspects of the re-election campaign.

[edit] Removed text from U.S. section

One sees the applicability of the All Seaons excerpt in the plight of David Souter and the Lost Liberty Hotel.

I'm not sure what "All Seaons" is, or what "excerpt" is being referred to here, but this case is an example of Eminent domain, which is fairly different. I've added that article to a new "See also" section. --Beland 22:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Some have argued that modern asset forfeiture laws are essentially bills of attainder.

That is very strange. I am wondering whether this is original research or not, so I'm removing it until sources for this can be cited. There are plenty of procedural laws which may or may not provide due process to everyone's satisfaction, but that seems quite different from actually targeting particular individuals in a law. Perhaps a case could be made for reparations as bills of attainder, but I'd also like to see some third-party sources for that. -- Beland 22:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Global perspective

What is the status of bills of attainder in countries outside the US and the UK? -- Beland 22:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why is this page still protected?

no edits for 1.5 months, no discussion of this on the talk page. Benwing 05:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] please add citation needed tags.

especially after claiming that the irish parliament told someone to break out of their cell in the Bastille to face sentencing in England, or else risk being drawn and quartered. Cite that bullshit!

So tagged. You can do this yourself in the future by writing {{citation needed}} in the article itself. -- Beland 01:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Citation added.Xaa 08:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)