Talk:Black Hand

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1 ....
2 Gavrillo Princep
3 A question
4 Serbia
5 Secret Society\Mafia
6 pop culture references?
7 Video Games

[edit] ....

it really is Chornoya, meaning "black" in russian language. "crna", sounds slightly familiar but i wouldnt know in what language this could refer to. Anyways. I hope that's of some clarification. But the word "Ruka", does indeed mean "hand" in russian. --User:Sofystikated

If this had anything to do with Russia, maybe what you're saying would make some sense? --Shallot 23:04, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree, why do you bring up Russia? The Black Hand was Serbian, Crna Ruka is Serbian for "The Black Hand". --62.78.185.120

Montenegro is crna something. So I'm guessing the language formerly known as Serbo-Croat. Secretlondon

Google gets 0 hits for 'Chornoya Ruka'. Hmmm. Morwen 21:37, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)

Chornoya Ruka means black hand in Russian... --GorillazFanAdam 17:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gavrillo Princep

Gavrillo Princep was not a member of the Black Hand, he was assited by them, they supplied the weapons, but he was not a member.

Incorrect. Gavrilo Princip was indeed an official member of the Black Hand. Mehicdino 04:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

He was a member; he was a friend of Chabrinovitch and was brought into the organizaion between 1912 and 1914 by Dimitrijevitch. RideABicycle | Talk | 20:43, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

He was not of sufficient age to become a member of the Black Hand. He did not appear on the coded list of members produced at Salonika. In any event, "Unification or Death" was no longer a functioning organization by the time of the assassination; instead its remnants had become little more than an extension of the Chief Of Serbian Military Intelligence's power. See the testimony of the central committee (Salonika): Its president was dead and was not replaced, its secretary was disinterested, its coffers were empty, many links between cells were broken by casualties taken in the war against Bulgaria. He is therefore usually referred to as a member of "Young Bosnia" or "Young Bosnians". This was not an organization, but simply a term used primarily after 1918 to refer to a wide range of organizations, groups and individuals dedicated to the destruction of Austria-Hungary so that a Yugoslavia, a Greater Serbia, or independent slavic states could form. Princip did try to join the Comitaji for the Balkans wars but was rejected by Major Tankosic, himself a member of the Black Hand central committee. There is evidence that the two adult members of the assassination team at Sarajevo were members of the Black Hand, namely Danilo Ilic, and Mohamed Mehmedbasic.

Werchovsky 18:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Sidney Bradshaw Fay's The origins of the world war makes clear Dimitrijevitch's inclusion of Princip as a Black Hand member at Vol. II, p. 101. Gavrilo was initially rejected in 1914 when he sought membership. However, two years later he was brought into the organization formally by Dimitrijevitch himself to work on an attempt on the Hapsburg Governor in Sarajevo. As a Bosnian émigré in Belgrade, he was a great choice. Before 1916, he remained in close contact with Chabrinovitch, who was involved with Union or Death for some time. It is often hard to discern details about the pan-Yugoslav organizations of this prewar period; Austria-Hungary never did find that Narodna Odbrana and Union or Death were separate entities. They shared assets and members, and were all affiliated with high government officers (via the ruling Radical Party).

RideABicycle | Talk | 19:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Something is wrong with your quoting of Fay. I am sure he wouldn't be saying that Princip joined "Unification or Death" in 1916 while Princip was in an Austro-Hungarian prison dying of consumption; and of course Dimitrievic was in Serbian Officer's Prison in late 1916. Perhaps you better quote Mr. Fay directly to avoid mischaracterizing his work. Perhaps you meant 1912 and 1914? It was Dimitrievic's sworn testimony that although the "Black Hand" oath was occassionally administered in 1914, it was only for the purposes of military intelligence.

Werchovsky 19:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A question

Does anyone know whether the Black Hand still exists, or if not, when it was destroyed/petered out? That might be useful for inclusion in this article, and to satisfy my own curiosity. --Anakolouthon 21:15, 8 Dec 2004 ( Some people think that still exsist but is not so active like it was

They scattered after Solunski Proces (The Sallonica Trials) during WWI where the leaders were court marshalled (and shot) for the 1903 coup and other crimes. Apis is burried in Zeytinlik military cemetery in Thessaloniki. --User:milosj

The above is false. Black Handers were tried at Salonika on many charges, all false. Ultimately they were convicted only of attempting to Kill Heir Aleksandar. The guilty verdicts were overturned posthumously for the three who were actually shot (Dimitrievic (formerly Chief of Military Intelligence) who had made a written confession to organizing the assassination of Franz Ferdinand through Rade Malobabic, Rade Malobabic who had confessed to a Priest that he had been sent to Sarajevo, and Colonal Vulovic who had confessed to having received orders signed by the Chief of the Serbian General Staff Marshall Putnik to send Rade into Austria-Hungary shortly before the assassination. Those not executed generally were let out of prison early. Serbia held none to account for their real crimes such as the assassination of the King and Queen and Queen's brothers, and 2 cabinet members in 1903, or for the aborted putsch in Macedonia in 1914, or for their roles in the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Read "The 'Black Hand' on Trial: Salonika, 1917", or any first rate history book on the origins of WWI such as Albertini or Fay.

Werchovsky 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbia

Montenegro is Crne Gore pronounced Tserna Gora, and Crne Ruka is Serbian

Montenegro is Crna Gora, and Black Hand is Crna Ruka. --User:milosj

[edit] Secret Society\Mafia

Is the original author of the article able to add the secret society and mafia aspects please.

Why mafia? They were a secret society that included mostly high-ranking officers and government officials. --User:milosj

Prior to the ascendancy of the Gambino family in the US' golden era of the mafia, the Italian mafia was referred to by the apellation "The Black Hand" as well. There should be a disambiguation page.Citizenposse 02:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

well.. there should be

[edit] pop culture references?

I'm not sure this is the best place to make a comment about a "blood metal band", if they are in fact worthy of being in wikipedia shouldnt that be better placed in an article about the band? --Michael Lynn 12:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)