Talk:Bloomsbury

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject London, an attempt to expand, improve and standardise the content and structure of articles related to London. If you would like to participate, you can improve the article attached to this page or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles.

Why isn't this page Bloomsbury and the dab page moved to Bloomsbury (disambiguation). Anyone know any good reason why not? Mrsteviec 23:16, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

prehaps because the Bloomsbury page IS the disambiguation page? And it is reasonable to assume, thought it isn't stated, that all originated from the place in London ... the publishers are there, the group met there etc etcPeter Shearan 09:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

sounds like a good reason to use the place as the primary meaning and for it to occupy the Bloomsbury article. Mrsteviec 09:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Definitely agree. Let's move it. Lfh 18:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree also. LordHarris 23:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I've redirected Bloomsbury to Bloomsbury, London and put in a tag to direct people to the disambig page. SilkTork 08:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BL

I would think that the British Library is not technically in Bloomsbury. It's on the wrong side of the road. Badgerpatrol 13:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Definitely on the north side of Euston Road and not in Bloomsbury. However, looking at British Library article the library was located in Bloomsbury until 1997, when the new building next to St Pancras opened. I've made the necessary changes to the article. Great user name by the way. RicDod 17:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. What area is it in though? Lfh 17:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Good Question. Somers Town, London is my best guess. This seems to be the only camden district article that accurately defines its boundaries. RicDod 18:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It's commonly referred to as being in St. Pancras, due probably to its proximity to the train station. Whether this is technically accurate or not (is there a St. Pancras area?) I can't say. Badgerpatrol 18:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The British library says it is in St Pancras [1] but our article says that the term has fallen out of use (St Pancras, London)... RicDod 18:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

St Pancras Station was built in Somers Town; St Pancras was the parish centred on St Pancras Parish church, lying a few hundred metres north of the ends of the platforms. (Hence, not much use for the area, most of it is under the railway tracks. Boadicea is supposed to have fought a battle here - hence the legend (disputed) that she lies under the platforms. The area used to be known as Battle Bridge. (BTW: good article) Kbthompson 18:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Two points not mentioned. While I'd agree that St Pancras is not used much these days (though I do actually know people who still use it, it has mostly been superceded by its components, Camden Town, Kentish Town etc etc.), it did not die out as just the parish - from 1899 to 1965 it was an entire Metropolitan Borough, one of the three components of the modern LBC, and including most of what people now think of as 'Camden' (in a woolly sense), so the term is not at all as ancient as it would appear from the above.

More importantly, we already have a perfectly good area entry for the region round St Pancras and King's Cross, namely King's Cross, London, an area shared by Islington and Camden. I can testify that this term has been used by people who live/work in the area, at least as far back as the 1970s (I don't believe that the BL should be considered to be in Somers Town, which is a tad further north.) Oh, I have only ever heard 'Battle Bridge' used in a modern context (for a very restricted area) by some friends of mine who literally lived on Battle Bridge Road. Tarquin Binary 19:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page Move

Oppose Too many competing uses for Bloomsbury. Whether or not the other uses derive their name from this is irrelevant. The notability and encyclopedic importance of other topics should be weighed on their own. It's like say that Harry Connick Jr's dad should be a primary topic because obvious junior gets his name from him. 205.157.110.11 22:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Support The only competing uses are the Bloomsbury theatre, which is not particularly well-known; the publishing house, which admittedly is quite well-known; and the two very obscure small settlements called Bloomsbury. The Bloomsbury Group is not really a competing use - why would you search for "Bloomsbury" when you know the name Bloomsbury Group? Ditto for Bloomsbury Gang. Lfh 23:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Support - not only is this the primary meaning, this use of the comma in the page title is completely nonstandard. --Yath 04:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
2. Support, this is the primary meaning of Bloomsbury. Other uses appear to be qualifications of this. The other geo refs are not significant enough to challenge this usage. The HC Jr argument is specious, see Frank Lampard for an example. Kbthompson 18:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think HC Jr is a bit more notable then either Frank Lampards. Though with the same "bloomsbury logic", Frank Sr would be the primary topic over Frank Jr. 205.157.110.11 14:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

1. Support, primary meaning. MRSC • Talk 20:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I see replies stated that this Bloomsbury is the Primary Topic but little in way of evidence to support that fact aside from the trite "If it came first..." type argument. (Consider Boston, he who comes first is not always #1). Additionally, can primary topic be established apart form a "UK-centric" POV. I can tell you in the US one is far more likely to have heard of the publishing house and possibly some of the indie bands then of the suburb. 205.157.110.11 14:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Apart from two minor alternative geographic references, these are all UK topics derived from this place, it is not surprising that a UK-centric PoV is expressed. This area in central London is significant for historical, literary and artistic reasons. There's no great point in asking for a poll, then arguing against its result. Kbthompson 15:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

But Wikipedia's readership is broad and diverse and there are quite a few folks out in the world who are going to be more familar with the international publishing house the with the suburb. I would concede that the suburb is primary in the UK but for the world wide audience that Wikipedia reaches for, it is far too ambigious with the other uses (namely the publishing house) to be taken from a disambiguation page. 205.157.110.11 22:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The British Museum and the circle of writers and artists around Leonard and Virginia Wolfe are synonymous with Bloomsbury. A specific small publishing house, that happens to have picked up Harry Potter, is a rather ephemeral meaning. Anyway, maybe someone else might wish to take up the topic, I think I've made my opinion clear. Kbthompson 23:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal opinions about the Harry Potter series aside, it's widespread popularity is undoubtable and that has risen the publishing house's profile immensely. For quite a few folks out there it will be the first (if not only) meaning of Bloomsbury that springs to mind. It is odd to handcuff Wikipedia's readers and editors to a singular meaning when it is not even the most popular worldwide usage because again Wikipedia is a world wide encyclopedia. 205.157.110.11 14:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Support The article about the place bloomsbury is the main meaning of the term Bloomsbury! All other things are derived from it - the Bloomsbury group, the Bloomsbury theatre are all called such because they are in Bloomsbury and not for instance Holborn!! LordHarris 04:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, the whole "derived from" argument is woefully weak. The origins of any name is irrelavant to the discussion of titles and disambiguation. The singular point and purpose of a title is how it best serves the Wikipedia reader-both in searching for the article they wish to read and in ensuring that when editors link to the article they are sending the reader to the right one. It an innumerable amount of cases, items that are "derived" or "named after" something easily surpass their originator in prominence. Again, think Boston. Perhaps we we should move America to Amerigo Vespucci? 205.157.110.11 14:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I still completely fail to see the point of your argument, apart from argument for argument's sake. The name of the publishers is Bloomsbury Publishers plc; not Bloomsbury in any way, form, or fashion. There is no confusion with the place. Kbthompson 15:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Support The London area is obviously the primary meaning as others have pointed out, heavily underpinned by such references as the Bloomsbury Group. A mere publishing house, however large or well-known, has only a secondary entitlement. (Consider - if this sort of thing is allowed, then people may start naming their companies so as to colonise WP entries...) Tarquin Binary 19:33, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry 205.157.110.1 but I agree with Kbthompson above. There is a definate consensus as well in regards to keeping the move as it is. LordHarris 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)