Talk:Bodkin point
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Bodkin tipped arrows will penetrate plate armour by several inches at ranges anywhere up to 100 yards using an "average" longbow.
N Hotchkiss
Modern experiments demonstrating that these arrows will barely, or not at all, penetrate plate armour used a stationary target. In this scenario, the only force applied to the armour is that of the incoming arrow. In battle, however, the Knights wearing plate armour were moving forward at possibly 15 - 20 miles per hour. That speed, multiplied by the combined weight of the horse, rider and their armour, is a terrific force moving in one direction. Combine that force with the force of the arrow moving in the opposite direction, and you have a Total Force more than capable of penetrating the best French or Italian plate armour of the time. Therefore, these arrows, loosed from a standard Longbow, actually were the devastating weapons depicted in contemporary accounts of Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt.
This article could use a picture. The best examples I found were Hector Cole Arrow Heads and Hector Cole Type 9. They're lovely but copyrighted, although there should be examples from English museum collections somewhere. Maybe someone could ask Hector Cole himself if he would provide photos of his work under the GFDL that could be used with attribution. I don't have any experience with making such a request, but his site is Hector Cole Arrowsmith. --Quale 22:10, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Your physics if flawed. That the knight is a large heavy object moving forward doesn't add much to the equation. The speed only adds maybe 10% at best, and the problem isn't that the arrow doesn't have the energy to puncture the armour, it the design of a bobkin is wrong for the job. It is a long point of SOFT iron, these are NOT hardened steel (if they were, they would work well). This long soft shaft deforms on impact, and spreads its force out over a much larger area. Show me a modern test that 'proves' they could readily punch through armour, and you are either showing me cheap non period armour, or cheap non period arrows. Bodkins that would be used in war were most likely for the range, and somewhat simple means of production, and repairing them is also easier than a broad head. Any arrow that was used as an 'anti-armour' arrowhead would have taken a shape more of a modern field point. A very short point, that wouldn't bend and compress easily when hitting something. Reference to armour piercing should be changed to point out this hold over error.--Talroth 01:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] English arrows or mud?
English arrows or mud? I believe I saw a show on the History Channel which reviewed this battle. They did a study with the long bow and arrows used against french knights. Their study showed that the iron tipped arrows didn't penetrate the french steel plate armour. Instead their study showed it was the "sticky" mud on the battle field which slowed the knights and eventually falling them. The mud would stick to the surfaces of the armour where as "clothed" light armed troops which had no problems killing French nobles did not get stuck in the mud as bad. They were able to use daggers and such to stab the fallen knights in the arm pits, eye slits, and etc. So the study showed it was mud and not english arrows which defeated the charge.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy"
Are you talking about Crecy or Agincourt? It makes a difference, as plate armour technology did move on in the intervening years. Also, even though I would accept that by Agincourt, longbows had trouble penetrating plate armour, it seems wrong to ignore the effect of thousands of archers firing tens of thousands of arrows, some of which would surely find weak spots in armour, or wound less well protected soldiers, or kill horses, or knock people down. Approximately 80% of the English army at Agincourt was longbowmen, and the English were probably outnumbered 3-1; so if longbowmen were utterly useless, how on earth did the English manage to win the battle?
--Merlinme 20:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sewing bodkin
In sewing a Bodkin is a rod, traditionally of ivory or bone, tapering smoothly to a point. It is used to make eyelet holes in cloth without cutting.--Saxophobia 01:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
