Talk:Brazilian national anthem

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This anthem represents some of the worse burilating aspects of Parnasianism, a style that was in vogue at the time. The first verse is so complicated that even most Brazilians don't really know the real meaning of it. As it stands, it should be noted that "do I(Y)piranga" actually modifies "as margens plácidas", something that in standard Portuguese is completely unwarranted by that word-order. -- Wtrmute

I believe that is called "sinédoque" in Portuguese grammar, i.e. an extreme inversion of normal word order. In standard Portuguese, one would say:

As margens plácidas do Ipiranga ouviram um brado retumbante de um povo heróico.

The anthem on the other hand has:

Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas de um povo heróico um brado retumbante.

Although I actually happen to enjoy the anthem's music, I agree that the lyrics are totally incomprehensible to most modern-day Brazilians, not only because of its complex syntax, but also because of the abundant use of archaic words ('lábaro', 'garrida','impávido', etc..).I am not aware though of any serious proposals to change the lyrics. Besides, I doubt any proposed changes to the lyrics would gain support in Brazil. Mbruno 13:58, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

You are both absolutely right (except for the name of the phenomenon—not a sinédoque—, but that's not the point and I don't know it either!). The English translation was:

"The resounding cry of a heroic people / was heard by the placid banks of the Ipiranga",

which translates as both

"Pelas margens plácidas do Ipiranga foi ouvido / de um povo heróico o brado retumbante" (using passive voice, unlike the original), and

"Ouviram do Ipiranga às margens plácidas / de um povo heróico o brado retumbante", which is incorrect.

I changed it because it is both ambiguous and, even then, the possible translations are, respectively, inaccurate and incorrect.

The official lyrics,

"Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas / de um povo heróico o brado retumbante",

translate as ::"The placid banks of the Ipiranga heard / the resounding cry of a heroic people", and that's what I changed.

Other than stylistic corrections, the subject of the phrase ("the placid banks of the Ipiranga" / "as margens plácidas do Ipiranga") is not to be changed. To wrap it up, the anthem says:

"As margens plácidas do Ipiranga ouviram o brado retumbante de um povo heróico"

and not

"Ouviram o brado retumbante de um povo heróico às margens plácidas do Ipiranga"

Sorry for the rude tone (not directed to you, Wtrmute and Mbruno!), but this segment of the anthem has historically been edited over and over by users who believe that the first verse contains "às" instead of "as". By the way, because of this issue, wouldn't this article be a cantidate for protection? I'm not familiar with the process, requisites, etc. lampi 23:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the translation

What was exactly the problem with the translation beside the original lyrics? Can I put it back? --FernandoAires 15:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I just submited a translation prepared by the Brazilian Embassy in London. Also changed the design of the page based on the one used in the translation of the Portuguese National Anthem --Leandroluso 04:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to clean up the translation quite a bit, since it did not seem to have been proofed by a native English speaker. I opted for 'thou' throughout since someone had already chosen that for at least part of it and 'tu' is archaic or literary in modern Brazilian Portuguese, but I wouldn't object to 'you' throughout either; it was just the mix that was not acceptable. I tried to leave as much as possible of the previous draft, but I'm still not crazy about 'star-spangled banner' as that phrase is so exclusively attached to the US flag in English. Does anyone have a definition of 'lábaro'? —Meliorist 17:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"Lábaro" means flag. This word is commonly used to refer to the Roman Empire Army's standard, after the convertion to Christianism. --FernandoAires 16:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

An unregistered user, perhaps not a native English speaker, proposed translating 'nosso peito' very literally as 'our chests.' I am not convinced. The word 'breast' is used in the sense of 'chest' in figurative or poetic contexts, as here, meaning the seat of certain emotions; it does not only mean 'seio.' Conversely, 'chest' is primarily used literally, and could easily be misunderstood as a large wooden box, so it would sound strange to say that a chest defied something. (It still sounds a bit strange, but not as much.) Also, according to my dictionary, 'peito' has a second figurative meaning of 'courage,' which is why I added the adjective. There may still be a better solution, but it should be in idiomatic English. —Meliorist 00:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikisource

Isn't this article more apropriate for wikisource? Just wondering. PHF 04:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First verse

As said above, and according to the official site of the Brazilian Government [1], the first verse is "Ouviram do Ipiranga as margens plácidas". Also, I think that the English translation could be changed to reflect that. --Dpc01 02:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)