Talk:British Empire

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Archive 1 Archive 2 (2003-4) Archive 3 (2005) Archive 4 (2006)

Contents 1 Greenland? 2 British East India Company 3 MAP 4 User:TharkunColl - this edit 5 Removed nonsense in opening para 6 Control of India and status of European powers 7 Sources 8 Legacy

[edit] Greenland?

I've also written this in the 'Evolution of the British Empire' page, but as the map is also here I thought it is relevant here too:

I see in the map labelled 'The British Empire in 1897’ there is a part of Greenland shown as part of the Empire. The map contains the note ‘This map shows parts of Greenland as part of the British Empire. This region was never occupied by the British and the claim was contested by Denmark, which continued to claim sovereignty over all of Greenland.’ Aside from this note, however, I can find no reference to any part of Greenland being claimed by the British in articles on the Empire or on Greenland. Looking at the map the area appears to be labelled ‘Prudhoe Land’; again I can find no reference to such a territory. If anyone does have any information about this I would find it very helpful if they could put some details on this page. --Phunting 1020, 29 Dec 2006

Don't know about this example. But there's something similar at Borders of the Roman Empire, where a part of Ireland is "sort of" included in the map. It's against the historical evidence, which fails to show a claim, much less an occupation. Do you notice any similarities in these cases, any community of edits? The usual suspects (above) may be at work, casting back for legitimacy in the hope that no objection is made.--Shtove 01:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that really helpful and relevant contribution. To the original poster: The borders were legally determined in 1933 (36 years after the map was drawn), but there is still a dispute today over Hans Island if you’re looking for relevant background information. Wiki-Ed 11:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Dripping with sarcasm. Thanks.--Shtove 13:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British East India Company

This passage in the second paragraph makes little sense. European powers at the time were simultaneously backwards in terms of their administration, their bureaucracies, and in terms of their military technologies. The resultant of "backwardness made it difficult for any one state to overwhelm the others and create in empire like that in China or India”. It reads like someone with a poor command of English dropped in the quote without necessary context. Johnatx 13:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It was nonsense. It was removed. Wiki-Ed 11:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MAP

Would someone PLEASE remove that absolutely vile map and insert one that is half decent? It's unclear, too busy and you can't really see the territories anyway. None of the other European empire pages have images of century-old maps, and if they do, they should be removed too. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.111.8.103 (talk • contribs).

The problem is what do you replace it with? Graphics are copyright, and cannot just be uploaded at whim. Are you in a position to create a better map? --Michael Johnson 04:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The map is fine and we've had this discussion before. There are other maps of the evolution of the empire on various pages. Wiki-Ed 11:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:TharkunColl - this edit

I'm sorry but that was totally inappropriate to remove, with a mere edit comment as an explanation. Ireland is widely considered to be England's first foray into colonialism, for example, the first volume of [ http://www.oup.co.uk/academic/humanities/history/ohbe/ this] devotes many of its pages to Ireland. Gsd2000 01:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yip, that's out of order, from an editor who has weighed in on this topic before.

The Elizabethan subtitle seems bent out of shape - result of Tharkun's kamikaze attack?--Shtove 01:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, that's how it was before. It is "bent out of shape" because of the need to shoehorn Ireland in. Whilst Ireland is certainly over the sea from England, it is not "overseas" in the general meaning of the term as used by the English. The inclusion of Ireland in this list is clearly motivated by political concerns. In reality, the relationship of Ireland to England must be sought in medieval feudal times. If we include Ireland, then why not Wales? Or Cornwall? Or central and northern England after it was conquered by Wessex? The whole point about the British Empire is that it came about as a result of the Age of Discovery. We already knew where Ireland was! I shall remove it again. TharkunColl 09:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Tharkun, you were involved in the debates over this months ago. Do we have to rehash the issue in to finer mince? There's nothing political about it - it's just a fact that English colonisation began with Ireland and set a template for the colonial empire. To come charging in and impose your own views on the article is bad form for an experienced WP editor.--Shtove 13:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly remember taking a significant part in any major debate on the issue. My point was really quite simple - if we include Ireland, then we must also include Wales which experienced English colonisation (e.g. Pembrokeshire, the "Little England beyond Wales") during the Norman period. And what about the medieval colonies in Ireland, around Dublin? It is ludicrous to make no mention of them, if Ireland is to be included. TharkunColl 13:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Apologies - I was recalling your username from Talk:British Isles. Anyway, there was debate about all this here. The sensible thing to do - and this appears to be the line taken in the texts quoted by Gsd2000 below - is to chart the beginning of the empire from its colonial origins in the 16thC. There's no controversy about Roanoke and Jamestown, so why object to the Plantations of Ireland and the Plantation of Ulster?--Shtove 15:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Because Ireland is not "overseas" (despite being over some sea), and was not a newly discovered territory. Colonisation of Ireland had begun in the 12th century, not the 16th. TharkunColl 17:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that Ireland wasn't newly discovered. Neither was North America - the Spanish had already been there for a century and John Cabot turned up for the English in 1497. And maybe 'overseas' is a big deal at the foreign office. But this article deals with the British Empire, which began with the colonisations of the 16thC. During that period, new colonies were established in Ireland - not in Wales or Cornwall or Isle of Man or Calais - and those colonies were the model for what was happening simultaneously in North America. The Stuart plantation of Ulster was England/Britain's, largest colony of all and dwarved what was happening across the Atlantic. It's plain. Why deny it? I guess you're not tracing the empire back to Angevin conquests and inheritances, but are you under the impression that Ireland was really under English control from the 12thC? There's a phrase for what the English were faced with following the near collapse of their government in Ireland: "Beyond the Pale" - it happened mid-14thC, during the Gaelic resurgence. That's why H8 undertook the Tudor re-conquest of Ireland, and why Ireland is sui generis in the list of Norman conquests.--Shtove 22:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

But to include Ireland nevertheless obscures the very real distinction between a British overseas empire based on trade as a result of the Age of Discovery, and the various feudal relationships in Ireland that the English state inherited from its previous Norman rulers. In particular, this article treats Henry VIII's assumption of the title "king" of Ireland as some sort of turning point, whereas in reality it was nothing more than a change in nomenclature.

The existance of English (and Scottish, of course) plantations in Ireland does not imply that Ireland was part of the British Empire. After all, one could simply interpret such activities as experimenting in one's own back yard before exporting the results overseas. TharkunColl 00:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The early empire was not based on trade, but on colonisation. If you want to talk about a trade based empire, then focus on the Portuguese. The change of title in Irlenad from lordship to realm was not about nomenclature - it marked the end of the feudal order and the beginning of a new order, which was explicitly committed to colonisation of the country. To describe what went on there as experimentation is flippant - the new order took 60 years to establish, in a series of vicious wars. I know Ireland is not an easy example to take because of its constitutional standing - kingdom or colony? as the historians put it - but it is necessary.--Shtove 22:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I am reverting again. The following references show that it is right to begin discussion of the British Empire with English colonization of Ireland.

• Niall Ferguson, Empire: The Rise and Demise of the British World Order and the Lessons for Global Power: "In the early 1600s, a group of intrepid pioneers sailed across the sea to settle and, the hoped, civilize a primitive country inhabited by - as they saw it - a 'barbarous people' - Ireland. It was hte Tudor queens...who authorized the systematic colonization of Ireland...By 1673 an anonymous pamphleteer could confidently described Ireland as 'one of the chiefest members of the British Empire'."

• Lawrence James, The Rise and Fall of the British Empire: "The first colonisation of North America was contemperaneous with the far larger settlement of Ireland...120,000 colonists arrived to help undertake what Francis Bacon revealingly called the "reduction to civility"...of the Irish. On both sides of the Atlantic the settlers faced sporadic but determined resistance..."

• Nicholas Canny, Origins of Empire, The Oxford History of the British Empire: "Much has been written about [the] interconnections between British 'domestic' and 'overseas' colonization, which has sometimes been likened to the connection between the reconquista of Moorish Spain and the conquest of New Spain. In both instances, historians find it puzzling that procedures and justifications that they associate with overseas colonization were employed within Europe into the early modern period...[several pages later]...The most obvious oversight is the extent to which the plantation in Ulster which was the costliest British colonial undertaking of the 17th century, both popularized the concept of 'British' as opposed to 'English' colonization, and provided the first example of how a British colony and Empire might function."

Gsd2000 12:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the term "overseas" from the header above Ireland, as this was discussed before. Consensus there is that "Whilst Ireland is certainly over the sea from England, it is not "overseas" in the general meaning of the term as used by the English." (in fact quoting User:TharkunColl's own words there! :-) Gsd2000 22:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, we seem to have some confusion in the discussions above between "British" (the subject of this article) and "English" empire-building. The first English empire building long pre-dated Ireland and includes the invasions of Wales, Scotland and parts of what is now France. MarkThomas 19:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There's discussion about England/Britain here. A basic problem is, When does Britain appear as a political reality? The concept was around in the late 16thC in John Dee's writings, and the movers and shakers at Elizabeth's court used the term in the 1590s, as they teed James VI up for the succession. Then you get the union of crowns in 1603, and union of parliaments in 1707. There's no clear starting point for the British Empire, but Irish historians use 1541 as the starting point for the Tudor re-conquest of Ireland, which kicked off the new policy of colonisation, which was extended across the Atlantic to North America, which is the point people traditionally see as the beginning of the empire.--Shtove 22:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed nonsense in opening para

"...it was not an empire in the traditional sense, as it used native soldiers in its armies and created violence to take what it wanted from its...neighbours" .... hmmm, I guess that means the Roman Empire wasn't an empire in its traditional sense either - because the Romans used native soldiers in their armies (one route to Roman Citizenship). Nor the French Empire (see French Colonial Forces). And I wonder how many empires didn't use violence. Absolute, total, nonsense. Gsd2000 15:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That you’re OWN POINT OF VIEW, I'm dealing with FACTUAL information.

As I have said before, serious doubts to your credibility along with Wiki-ED. This is a University Text Book at Major North American Universities, research compiled on other research done by professors at Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, etc. This is Widely Accepted as Fact! You should really do your research first. You have no proof to back up your claim with ANY sources (reliable), which leads to the impression of Bias and you not respecting the NPOV of this article.

Additionally, You started by saying one thing was the problem, and took them BOTH out without any established proof to your claims. I will be writing up a = Controversies = section in a few days, provided with reputable sources because this article need a seriously overhaul. You’re acting with Censorship instead of opening your mind to widely established facts, from University TEXT. I don't need some sort of survey to mane a Controversy section; I feel that you are bullying people into getting your Point by Censorship, which violate Wikipedia Rules. It seems you have a bit of history associated with that.

I will Post it, and unless you can accurately disprove my claims, it's allowed in. You and Wiki-ED are not the Owner of this site, and don't be a Sock-Puppet by going around and using your influence to Support your view(s). That's against Wikipedia policy. Govern yourself accordingly Cosmos416 13:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Just because you are in a disagreement with me, that is not justification to add a tag to the article about neutrality, so I removed it. People who are watching the British Empire page will also be watching this talk page: just wait for others to contribute to the debate. Gsd2000 18:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you are very forceful for everything edit I have done with proof, and you still not have shown one piece of proof. I will report you activates if you don't stop acting hostile, and censoring me. Cosmos416 13:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have already explained above why I believe this to be wrong, and notably you have addressed neither of my points, your argument is that you have a textbook that says it's so. Well, User:Wiki-Ed already reverted your contribution once stating "Rv remaining Cosmos196 additions. Referenced sources aren't necessarily relevant or sensible". I entirely agree with this. You might also be interested to know that I attended one of the universities you mention. Gsd2000 18:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, you are misusing the "neutrality dispute" tag: it is not supposed to mean "there is something in the article that I disagree with so check the talk page" - it's not for personal disputes. By placing this tag there, anyone reading the British Empire article will see it and you will potentially be misleading them. It shouldn't be used lightly. As I say above, the right place for this discussion is on this talk page: please wait for others to contribute. People interested in this article read this talk page. Gsd2000 19:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

User Cosmos416 Why would you put this in the opening paragraph? The article is not about India and what is a "conventional" fight?

However, the fight for control of India was not a conventional one.

What does this mean?

European powers at the time were simultaneously backwards

Or this?

The resultant of "backwardness made it difficult for any one state to overwhelm the others and create in empire like that in China or India”.

How about this? What's a traditional empire?

However, it was not an empire in the traditional sense

Of course none of them ever...

created violence to take what it wanted from its global neighbours.

...So we'd better highlight the fact that this one did?! Now I don't happen to have a copy of this book by Mr Underhill, but I strongly suspect you are taking whatever he said out of context because it reads very badly. Also, the reason I can guess at what he says is because it explains the subject further down the page using more balanced language. No one is "censoring" you, but what you are trying to insert is either out of context, included already or presents a misleading picture to the casual reader. Wiki-Ed 21:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop trying twist the Authors words. This is from a Widely used University Textbook, with sourced research. Wiki-Ed and Gsd2000, you guys are working together and supporting each other (shown in you talk history, which for some reason you deleted…), and gather other support I have seen to bully people and you also broke the 3RR rule, something I should have made the Admins aware of, but I'm new and didn't know anything about that, before.

Unless you guys can show Prove with Sources discrediting my info, it will stay in because this article has a one-sided view, and a systematic bias, especially shown by both of you two getting together and commiserating. Cosmos416 15:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

So you're new - welcome aboard, but please understand a few things. (1) a user can do what they want with their own talk page (2) you shouldn't take it personally when/if others revert your edits (3) the burden of proof is on the contributor adding text, to back up why it should remain (4) moving text around on article talk pages like you did here is not polite (5) this is not going to win you any arguments "This is from a Widely used University Textbook, with sourced research.". As for the specifics of your contribution: the fact is that it was clearly explained to you why your addition was deemed inappropriate: if it was a case of Wiki-Ed and me "ganging up" on you and reverting something that is appropriate, then other editors would chime in and either restore your text, or contribute to the debate on the talk page and say so. Noone has done so. Gsd2000 21:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Ahh....yeah and I did..from a Widely used University textbook, now it's up to you to disclaim the Sourced Research with your OWN Proof, you you have to leave it in, it's balanced. Plus, your still ganging up with Wiki-Ed, you just message him. Cosmos416 16:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, there is no need to resort to this kind of tactic. Gsd2000 22:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that Wikipedia:Resolving disputes be read over. Hopefully, this dispute can be resolved civilly. ~ UBeR 22:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Control of India and status of European powers

Can you please explain why you reverted this, on the article's talk page? There is already a discussion there, I find your actions inappropriate, given that you have not contributed to this article before. Gsd2000 21:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I also find your warning on my talk page rather rude. I am fully aware of the 3RR rule and did not violate it. I'm trying to engage with you here, there's no need for that. Gsd2000 22:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

With regards to [1], [2], [3], [4], and [5], you are in violation of the three revert rule. ~ UBeR 22:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not. Because, if you actually bother to read the diffs (which you clearly have not), they are two separate incidents. Furthermore, in both cases, I had support of another editor, and was reverting to the article as it had been for a long while. You should Assume Good Faith. Now you have edited British Empire, you have reverted it to a state that does not represent consensus on the talk page - consensus in this case being two (long-standing) contributors to British Empire agreeing that one (new) contributor trying to add something deemed badly worded, misleading and inappropriate. Two weeks went by and noone else contributed to the debate in favour of the text being added. Did you even read the talk page before you waded in? An apology from you on my talk page wouldn't be out of place, either. Gsd2000 22:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The rules read, "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period." It matters not which incident you are reverting. Also, WP:AAGF. My regards, ~ UBeR 22:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

UBeR is right, it does not matter what you are reverting. A WP:3RR-revert is broadly defined as "undoing, in whole or in part, the actions of another editor or of other editors" (note the plural). Take care! --Stephan Schulz 22:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I honestly didn't realise this. However, I don't agree with your blind reversion of the article at hand without contributing to the debate on the talk page, particularly your edit comment "Please stop reverting verfiable information". Gsd2000 22:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no Debate, you keep on deleting it without Debate, or with cited sources with proof discrediting the infomation from the University Text. It is well researched from major north american universities, and also used by them. It's upto you to discredit it with Sourced Proof, no just saying you don't agree with research information. Otherwise, you have nothing to back up your claims. Show proof!

Cosmos416 22:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

FYI - debate is here. Gsd2000 22:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Cosmos416, can please you quote all relevant paragraphs from the source. This will be helpful. Thank you. ~ UBeR 22:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree again. I tried finding relevant excerpts, but drew a total blank at books.google.com, and nothing relevant at www.amazon.com. Having the actual text would be a gread help! --Stephan Schulz 22:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

On the assume good faith principle that the words are quoted accurately and in context, I'm not sure about the wording of the mention, nor about its placing in the lead paragraph. It seems to be making a point in a way not appropriate to a neutral article, and a point which is a questionable one. The article on Empire starts by saying how difficult it is to define. The assertion that the British "created violence to take what it wanted" is very questionable; the British Empire hardly aimed to create violence within itself once it was established. Sam Blacketer 23:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Sam. Gsd2000 was at least right to put the brakes on Cosmos. With edits that should be discussed beforehand, the 3RR rule is one more honoured in the breach than the observance. The original text of the reverted edit suggests that the book in question is not being summarised accurately - the 'backwardness' paragraph contradicts itself.--Shtove 23:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

There is another quote from this contributor/source that is remaining in the article: "However, the fight for control of India was not a conventional one. European powers at the time were simultaneously backwards in terms of their administration, their bureaucracies, and in terms of their military technologies. The resultant of "backwardness made it difficult for any one state to overwhelm the others and create in empire like that in China or India”. European powers were advanced in terms of naval military technologies, and had good weapons to protect their ships at sea, which allowed them to project force into the Indian Ocean." Again this is odd: if India wasn't one, what is a "conventional" fight? European powers were "simultaneously backwards" when this was a time of Europeans dominating the world? The rest may be true, but I'm not sure it's really relevant in the first paragraph of a section on the British East India Company. Gsd2000 23:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, that is a weird addition. I agree that India was not a conventional "fight" (assuming this means "military conquest") - most of it was taken over by the East India company without a plan or an organized campaign. It was only taken under direct Crown control much later. But the rest of the comment is weird. Europe was certainly not backwards with respect to military technology, whether Naval or on land. Admininstration and bureaucracy may have been more advanced in China, but probably not in most of the rest of the world. --Stephan Schulz 23:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is the cited text: Political Economy and the Changing Global Order. The seller lets you search inside, and I'm struggling to find anything remotely related to the text in question. Furthermore, the description says "Bringing together 33 specially commissioned chapters by leading scholars in politics, economic, and international relations, this book provides an authoritative introduction to the theory and practice of international economic relations in the post-Cold War world." - so this isn't even a text about the British Empire, let alone the period in question. Gsd2000 00:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice! I didn't know that "search" gives you pages not in the normal preview. Anyways, according to that search, the term "British Empire" occurs exactly once (there is another occurance of the "French Empire" following the lead of the "British"). And the one occurrence is in relation to post-cold-war guerrilla war. So really, this book does not seem to be a useful source for the topic in question. --Stephan Schulz 00:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that merits removing the second section of text from the article. Not only are five editors agreeing that the text is fishy, but we have now demonstrated the "source" to be nothing of the sort. Would you agree? (I can't revert now I'm 3RR violating...) Gsd2000 00:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Good job.--Shtove 01:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Rather nasty little response from Cosmos146 on my talk page about all of this: [6] Gsd2000 13:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah….and that's why you ERASED your PAST ARCHIVE of TALK HISTORY on your user page of YEARS worth of the same FIGHTS, MANY ABOUT THE SAME PAGE.. RIGHT?

MOST of the people here forming a so-called "consensus" is leaning more on the basis of page protectionism, and bias. I'm not saying all, but saying MOST of the people don't have any proof to discredit. My version of the BOOK IS A FEW YEARS OLD……..

THAT LINK POSTED TO THE BOOK ABOVE, TO WHICH YOU FORMED A “CONSENUES”, IT'S FROM THE 1994 VERSION OF THE SAME BOOK. NICE TRY, DO YOUR HOMEWORK.

THEY ARE ABOUT 30 CHAPTERS IN EACH VERSION OF THE BOOK, FROM YEAR TO YEAR. A DIFFERENT AUTHOR WRITES FOR EACH CHAPTER, IN THEIR SPEICALIZED FIELDS.... MAKES ANY SENSE???? DON’T MAKE FALSE AND BASELESS ACCUSTIONS.

I took the paper and paraphrased, summarized, and sourced with quotes (If your in University, you’ll do this when you write 15-25 pages in something called a RESEARCH PAPER).....

BTW, you still have to discredit the information PROPERLY and not use SLEZIE TATICS like puting MISLEADING INFO from 1994 version. Cosmos416 07:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this discussion will benefit more from light into the contentious text than heat between editors. Cosmos, perhaps you could make a more formal proposal for what you want to include in the article? Very often a disputed claim, if worded slightly differently and toned down, becomes acceptable. Given that the British Empire is a significant subject of academic study, we can almost certainly find multiple sources for what you want to say. Sam Blacketer 11:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I asked earlier, and I'll ask again. Could you please copy all the relevant paragraphs (and page numbers). It would be very helpful! ~ 20:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

We don’t need multiple sources. This is from a widely used University textbook, which you had a vote on bias, FALSE information [based on 1994 edition], mine is one of the 2005 version I believe. Go buy the book yourself or check it out at the library. Did you read this???....

"I took the paper, I paraphrased, summarized, and sourced with quotes (If your in University, you’ll do this when you write 15-25 pages in something called a Research Paper)..."

If you guys dispute the accuracy of the content, the bearing is on you to discredit it with relevant sources directly supporting your position. I have given a paper derived from a widely used University Textbook, complied from research based on studies (and sourced) from MIT, Cambridge University, Cornell, etc.. It's all in the book.

I’m now thinking instead of creating a Criticism section over the next couple of weeks because there are many issues where scholars have raised as the British army with hiring Indian soldiers (Sepoy’s: 270,000 [1857]) to fight their own people. That’s one topic and there are at least 10 more I will cover.

Also I will be going threw the whole article to put fact needed symbol because this whole page doesn’t have any sources linked to 95% of the content.

Cosmos416 23:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Chill out dude. And you're not the only person to be studying at or have studied at University. There is no need to be so aggressive, or develop a persecution complex. I see that I linked to an old version of the book, so I apologise for that. But I have managed to track down a copy of the paper you refer to, HERE. Everyone can now read it for themselves (see page 54). However, to make others' jobs easier, I'll quote directly from it (something you seem unwilling to do despite requests from other editors), and compare to the text you added to the Wikipedia article.

You wrote: "However, it was not an empire in the traditional sense, as it used native soldiers in its armies and created violence to take what it wanted from its global neighbours...However, the fight for control of India was not a conventional one. European powers at the time were simultaneously backwards in terms of their administration, their bureaucracies, and in terms of their military technologies. The resultant of backwardness made it difficult for any one state to overwhelm the others and create in empire like that in China or India. European powers were advanced in terms of naval military technologies, and had good weapons to protect their ships at sea, which allowed them to project force into the Indian Ocean."

Schwartz wrote: "Western European states were simultaneously backward and advanced (my emphasis there) in terms of their administrative and military technologies. Backwardness made it difficult for any one state to overwhelm the others and create an empire like that in China or India. Superior naval military technologies, however, allowed them to project force into the Americas and Indian Ocean. Europeans could't dominate each other but they could use violence to take what they wanted from many of their global neighbours."

You have totally and utterly misrepresented what Schwartz wrote there. (1) he's talking about Europeans, not the British specifically; (2) he refers to "the Americas and the Indian Ocean", not specifically to India; (3) Schwarz's words about Europe being "simultaneously backward and advanced" are a far, far, far cry from your words, where you snipped out "...and advanced". (4) the conclusion that "(the British Empire) was not an empire in the traditional sense, as it used native soldiers in its armies and created violence to take what it wanted from its global neighbours" is your conclusion, not Schwarz's - nowhere does he make such a claim (5) besides, I can't even see a reference to "native soldiers". If this misrepresentation was deliberate, you should be ashamed of yourself, and if it wasn't... well, I shudder to think... Gsd2000 01:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ooh I go away for the weekend and it all gets very excitable. Nice detective work GSD - a shame it had to be done though. I should add that the author of that article has a slightly unusual take on company activities. This POV is not expressed in the other sources cited in the references section of the article and since the article is (supposedly) compiled from those sources Mr Schwartz's view should not be given primacy. Wiki-Ed 12:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the question of whether or not Schwartz was correctly quoted is an entirely different one to whether or not he should be quoted. Gsd2000 00:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If you truly are in a university, lets up hope your plagiarisms doesn't spread there. ~ UBeR 05:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have the book anymore, I actually sold it and got the condensed version with multiple sources complied and thought it would have been good enough, because it is out of my university notes, which had sources and references.

First...I wouldn’t call it plagiarism or misreporting, because I stand by my statement because this is a research notes complied from my professor did when she at McGill University and see used her research combined with a few other texts. My professor made her notes for us by paraphrasing, using her own research and other sources supporting her view with different sources. That does not make it a lie, and again, I stand by it.

Second...If you read the whole book it also dealt and direct quote where it says “they organized this theft through the Dutch and British East India Company”, which I believe needs further input in the ‘’’Criticism’’’ section I will be adding in and expanding in the coming weeks (economic exploitation, slavery, using native soldiers in Asia, Africa, and the America’s, etc.).

Third...Finally, this whole article has a bias/ favoring a certain view, and there are no Citations for 95% of the information on this page. The links said to be sources are few lines at most. I’m adding a source tags for citations also because there are none corresponding to many facts.

Fourth...BTW UBeR is being investigated for Trolling on the Wikipedia: Administrators' notice board and for "His repeated and persistent harassment", "Unfounded sockpuppet accusations, trolling, specious 3rr warning, trolling", sounds allot like what's happening here....

Gsd2000, your twisting facts again, lying to support your own view, and has not answered the question of your sources for all the things you have put in this page, looking at your past history on this page, conflict on your user page for Years which you deleted. Why did you erase it then? .

You should starting putting in sources for 95% of the information that needs sourcing, cause I'm starting to add tags where ever it is needed.

Also read my Third, Fourth, and especially FIRST.

Cosmos416 15:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC

Cosmos146, let's take a look at your Third, Fourth, and especially FIRST points.

First: Regarding your source. I think her research combined with a few other texts would be what we call "original research".

Third: Regarding the style of the article, it might be biased in your opinion, but the article is actually pretty neutral and avoids making the kind of value judgements you have been inserting. This is also partly why there are so few in-line citations - there is little need for them. However, I will concede that there are a few assertions which needs to be referenced.

Fourth: Although this is irrelevant to the article, I understand that Uber originally interceded on your behalf. I didn't see you complaining about him then...

You've already discredited yourself and your proposal to insert a section dealing with material already covered by the article, but slanted to reflect your personal opinion, does not inspire confidence. Wikipedia is not a forum for you to express your prejudice behind a facade of unbalanced misquotes from selected critics. Wiki-Ed 21:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd also like to mention that UBeR and I are on opposite ends as far as this rather unrelated issue is concerned. In my opinion, it's fine to avoid eurocentrism, or even to be politically correct, but not at the expense of being actually correct. The British Empire is hardly unique in greedily grabbing what it could get. And it is certainly not unique in using native troops and fostering dissent among its opponents - in fact, if I got this information as part of a quiz question, my first guess would be the Byzantine Empire (but it's trivial to find examples of just this behaviour for e.g. the Persian, the Roman and the Austrian Empires). --Stephan Schulz 22:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Wiki-Ed read....

"First...I wouldn’t call it plagiarism or misreporting, because I stand by my statement because this is a research notes complied from my professor did when she at McGill University and see used her research combined with a few other texts. My professor made her notes for us by paraphrasing, using her own research and other sources supporting her view with different sources. That does not make it a lie, and again, I stand by it."

Don't try and discredit something before it even is posted, that's showing your bias with flying colours. The Criticism section is going in, and they is absolutely no reason why it shouldn’t. There are many articles research about economic exploitation, slavery, using native soldiers in Asia, Africa, also charge of Eurocentrism, and instances of History distortion, including achievements. These are important things for people to know so they don't get a one sided view.

Also, you and others You should starting putting in sources for 95% of the information that needs sourcing, cause I'm starting to add tags for sources where ever it is needed.

Cosmos416 21:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hold on.. let me get this straight. I am in disbelief here.

Firstly, you wrote, at least twice, "My version of the BOOK IS A FEW YEARS OLD" and then you told us that you "took the paper...paraphrased...summarized, and sourced with quotes (If your in University, you’ll do this when you write 15-25 pages in something called a Research Paper)..."

Then, after we actually locate said text, and find you have completely misquoted it, you change your story thus: "this is a research notes complied from my professor did when she at McGill University and see used her research combined with a few other texts. My professor made her notes for us by paraphrasing, using her own research and other sources supporting her view with different sources."

That means, you never even read the text for yourself. I'll say this to you again: you should be ashamed of yourself. You have committed the worst possible sin in academia: lying. Lying about your research and your sources. The icing on the cake is that you were simultaneously insulting your fellow editors [7]. Gsd2000 00:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Gsd2000, if you don't stop with the personal attacks, I'm going to report you, I explained what happened, so leave it alone, be mature, and start being productive. Go through the article, add specific quotations and where all the information came with pages number, author,etc..

I did read the book, but like I said I sold it. I used the researched notes complied on her own research, and several other sources with deals with many aspects of which like I said I will go into the Criticism section. You keep repeating yourself over.

You still have not shown any sources of your personal entries history, and 95% is unsourced entries.

You can also get a detailed copy of user Gsd2000 page talk history, in which shows a disturbing pattern over years of serious trouble with users on wikipedia [8]

Cosmos416 02:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That is totally out of order, and taken totally out of context (seems to be a recurring theme with you). If you really must trawl through my talk page history, that user, Userofwiki was a sockpuppet violating several WP rules, and ended up being banned, as did the sockpuppeteer, Somethingoranother. When you deal with people determined to disrupt or vandalise Wikipedia, you end up with nasty messages on your talk page - just like you wrote on mine. That's it, I'm not going to converse with you any more. Gsd2000 11:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It’s not totally out of order, because your posting personal messages to on the board, and you did it first, so it’s fair game. Last time I’m going to ask you stop attacking me, then I report you because I explained myself several times, and since I can’t write out my whole research notes, you assume a more baseless view. That’s fine, but please keep it to yourself. You keep harassing people, and then claiming your being harassed.

This will not be your playground for your attacks on me, so I repeat, last time I asking you. Stop with theses childish games. Don’t make anymore disparaging comments against user(s). Help expand the Criticism section I’ve already started, so we can make it more transparent, and let’s be productive, and get everything that needs a source, sourced.

Cosmos416 15:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

It's a bit rich for someone who thinks a reputable source is some notes they made whilst listening to a professor who read some book someplace sometime, to add a "this article does not cite its sources". If you don't articulate on this talk page what needs to have its sources cited, I'm going to remove this tag. Gsd2000 00:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I've removed it. As the editor adding it lost the trust of his fellow editors, he can start to regain that trust by articulating here what facts need sources citing. Simply saying "95% of them do" is not enough. Gsd2000 00:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, he is correct. Some of Wikipedia's most fundamental rules include WP:V and WP:OR. Wales stands very strongly to these rules, and even argues unsourced information has no place on Wikipedia. For an article this size, 5 references doesn't quite cut it.

While, indeed, most of the statements in the article might be true, there has to be an source to back it up. Remember, "Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." ~ UBeR 01:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

There are eleven references and five notes (only four of which are actually references themselves), thirteen distinct sources in total. The multiple volume Oxford and Cambridge Histories of the British Empire are particularly extensive. If someone is challenging a fact in the article, then I agree a ^{[citation needed]} is the right thing to do, but as far as I'm concerned, this article does cite its sources. I don't think a tag at the top of the article is appropriate, myself. Gsd2000 01:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

But it is an issue, especially with history articles. An article on technology or on recent political controversies really has to have a citation for every other line (although, in my experience, many are out of date and lead nowhere). But in a history article, much depends on synthesis of the sources, so inline (or in-paragraph) citation can get complicated.

At a minimum, quotations and distinct opinions must be cited immediately. Beyond that, I'm not sure. Insistence on citation of sources for every assertion of fact would take WP beyond its role as a tertiary source. There are policy pages devoted to the various difficulties raised here, but I haven't seen any one dealing with the peculiar problems of compiling history for WP.--Shtove 02:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

From WP:A, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. . . .

Although everything in Wikipedia must be attributable, in practice not all material is attributed. Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. If an article topic has no reliable sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." ~ 02:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair points, and all of which I think underline my point that instead of plastering the tag at the top of the article, there should be discussion on this talk page of what portions of the article need to have sources, or targeted ^{[citation needed]} within the article, beyond what can be found in the texts already listed in the References section. Most of the article is a bog standard history of the British Empire that all of those eleven sources agree on. Gsd2000 02:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I see one of the problems. While there are 13 sources, only two are actually cited within the article. That is, 11 of the sources are not being attributed. See, for example, WP:CITE. ("It is crucial that complete references be provided for each distinct edition referred to (or cited) in the article, and that each such in-line citation provide enough information to distinguish between editions.") ~ UBeR 02:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that exact attribution is useful, but I read the section you quote as relating to the completeness of the reference ("Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy, second edition, Ursa Minor Publishing, Stardate 1891282), not the requirement to attribute each individual fact to a distinct source (that would be extremely tedious). --Stephan Schulz 07:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Compare this article with Spanish Empire which too relies on a References section rather than specific inline references. There is no need to go OTT here. You can't inline reference everything, as Shtove says. Gsd2000 02:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, they're not my rules; they're Wikipedia's. Wikipedia's reputation as a reliable tertiary source lies on these guidelines. They're of utmost importance. Second, it's a fallacy to assume because one article does a wrong thing, it's appropriate for another to follow suit. Now surely if there are references that actually do come in concord with this article, then they can be attributed to specific things. How can I know which statement is attributed to which source? How can I verify some statement made here? This is the purpose of these Wikipedia guidelines. ~ UBeR 05:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

No, anything remotely that sounds like a fact needs a citation. Go down the page, look at the body of information, and there is no corresponding facts for almost all of the information given. That's suspicious and needs to be fixed. If no accurate or reliable sourced is determined, it will be removed.

You can compare lots of articles, but you need specific citations as other history articles on wikipedia has, there are virtually none corresponding to the vast amounts of information, that's what I mean by 95%. You don't want a one-sided view, right? You r fighting so much for sources, and your right, we do need to source facts. Additionally, we need to add more to the article to make it more transparent, like adding in the Criticism section, and also more into the Economic aspect also including slavery and exploitation.

BTW user Gsd2000...."There are eleven references and five notes (only four of which are actually references themselves), thirteen distinct sources in total. The multiple volume Oxford and Cambridge Histories of the British Empire are particularly extensive. If someone is challenging a fact in the article, then I agree a [citation needed] is the right thing to do, but as far as I'm concerned, this article does cite its sources. I don't think a tag at the top of the article is appropriate, myself. Gsd2000 01:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)"

That's a joke right? Point out exactly where it speaks for 95%?? Source it, put your money where your mouth is. Cause I'm having a hard time for finding almost ALL the information in the article relating on very few sources.

Cosmos416 02:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It's obviously not a joke. I am debating with on this page with UBeR and others, reading their points and replying with mine. Until you can find it in yourself to politely do the same, I think you should stop chiming in. Given your conduct here, as I say above, you have a lot of trust to reearn, Cosmos416. Gsd2000 11:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, last time I’m going to ask you stop attacking me, then I report you because I explained myself several times, and since I can’t write out my whole research notes, you assume a more baseless view. That’s fine, but please keep it to yourself. IIf anyone has to "reearn" anything, it's you shown by your lack of providing any sources, continued page protectionism, and making false claims against users, all of which shown in these pages and your own history talk page. I’m new here, and since I have objections about the quality and transparency of the article, you have a more bias, and personal objections about me, and my views, when throughout your history adding to the page, have not sourced anything remotely helpful to your info entries.

I have at the very least research notes complied with several sources, while you continue to avoid any subject to where you added to this article, and never sourced, and how to revert everything on these pages for years, claiming the same thing, over and over. I’m not going to let you push around people anymore, because you don’t give anyone even a chance. You keep harassing people, and then claiming your being harassed.

This will not be your playground for your attacks on me, so I repeat, last time I asking you. Stop with theses childish games. Don’t make anymore disparaging comments against user(s). Help expand the Criticism section I’ve already started, so we can make it more transparent, and let’s be productive, and get everything that needs a source, sourced.

Cosmos416 15:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

UBeR reminded us "Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth", but citing a source is assuming that source is "truth", where in reality it is just the opinion of the author of a published work.

We use the rule that Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged but how can you judge when someone who uses original research from biased sources and pushes a particular POV will challenge a given section?

Tiresome though it is, I think we need to stick tags in and find a variety of sources to illustrate that the article summarises the current state of academic opinion. Some editors will never read the references used to construct the article. They'll continue to make changes to suit their own point of view until they are forced to do so by strings of references. Wiki-Ed 13:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This is the first time I've seen the attribution/citation point raised in a general way for history articles - and I think UBeR is right, but it's a tricky situation. As far as I can tell, WP policy requires inline citation for quotes, academic opinions, and for assertions of fact to which the editor might reasonably anticipate a challenge. The first two categories are not a problem, but the third is. I agree with Wiki-ed on that.

Most of the stuff I've posted is historical biography, with very few inline citations - the articles rely on reference sections, naming the books from which I took notes to compile the various entires. So, when I compare my contributions to one of my most used sources, the Dictionary of National Biography, it's clear that WP is a lesser source. But in providing inline citations the DNB is almost invariably referring to primary sources. WP only claims to be a tertiary source - a report of what the experts say about the particular subject.

UBeR put a non-attribution tag on Spanish Empire, which is a good article. But he is making a sound point. Problem is - how to fix it? There's a lot to talk about.--Shtove 20:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, there's all this information on this page that must have come somewhere. There are also 11 references listed in the "references" section, but not listed in the rest of the article. So unless this entire article was original research, there ought to be some concord with the article is saying and what other sources are saying. ~ UBeR 02:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not original research. I believe much of it is drawn from the books listed (as you can see I've found some bits very quickly from two of those authors) and they could be used to support nearly all of the tags I've inserted. Obviously this would be bad form so ideally we need to include a wider variety of texts. However, in the short term let's address removing the tags? Wiki-Ed 10:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yuck. I've made a start on this. Sorry it makes the article look a bit scruffy, but if we're going to be pedantic about it then we might as well go all the way. I think we can provide references for a lot of the tags very quickly. I'll see what I can do this afternoon with the sources I have available here. Wiki-Ed 14:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice work Wiki-Ed, and Stephan Schulz. I'll try to help out some more at the weekend. Gsd2000 01:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually - I'm starting to think we've gone overboard here. WP:V: "Attribution is required for direct quotes and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." The vast majority of this text is uncontentious and easily confirmed in the most cursory of texts about the British Empire. True, there are some weasel words and a some POV leaking in (these should be removed, Wiki-Ed has already done a bit), but neither user - UBeR nor the other chap - who added the tag has actually challenged any specific fact in the article (I might also add, it doesn't look like they're going to help out either finding sources). The fact is that this article does cite its sources - anyone can look in any of those books listed in the References section and confirm the facts. Just to requote the policy: "Attribution is required for direct quotes and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." So again, I think we have gone overboard. Gsd2000 14:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course I agree with you that the article is relatively non-contentious, but the key words from the policy are "likely to be challenged". We cannot guess what certain people might challenge but we can't go wrong by assuming that they will challenge everything because they won't read the referenced sources. Although I think you're right that my tagging is going "overboard", I see no harm in tightening up the writing and sourcing statements where applicable. It should save time in the long term. Wiki-Ed 20:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

OK. I still think though that - now the article is pretty much written already - it's more efficient to cross each bridge as we come to it (ie as and when each fact is challenged) - than to go through and guess what facts might be challenged. (This article has existed in its current state for a long long time, and I haven't seen many facts challenged). Also, if he doesn't have the books to dip into to find references, I encourage UBeR to help out by challenging some specific facts. It's too easy to swoop in and add tags at the tops of articles. Gsd2000 21:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, the subject of references was discussed in the peer review. And, it's a "good article". Keep the ^{[citation needed]} things in there , but I move to remove the tag at the top. Gsd2000 21:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think you are misunderstanding the policies and my purpose here. First of all, there is no need for any contention here; my purpose is to benefit the article. Already, we have seen improvements. Articles are scrutinized not to desecrate them, but rather to aid them into making great articles.

While you're right that quotations and material likely to be challenged absolutely have to be sourced, also note, "Any edit lacking attribution may be removed, and the final burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material. . . . If you encounter a harmless statement that lacks attribution, you can tag it with the {{fact}} template, or move it to the article's talk page with a comment requesting attribution. If the whole article or an entire section is unsourced, you can use the {{unreferenced}} template. Absurd unsourced claims and original research should be deleted rather than tagged or moved to a talk page." The problem isn't that there aren't sources which confirm the information; the problem is that references are not being attributed or used correctly within the article (however, as I noted, this is being improved upon). ~ UBeR 22:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I go against UBeR for the moment. Quotations must be attributed immediately. Academic opinions too. That's clear. And facts 'likely to be challenged' ought to be attributed - but this issue is only raised when the challenge actually happens: and so the WP-litigation begins.

The policy pages seem unclear on the rules of litigation. First, there's Equivocation in the use of the terms Attribution and Sourced. Second, there's no guidance given for broad historial subjects - this article, for example, where the sources themselves are summaries of fact and don't rely on primary sources. Third, there is an argument from policy (the "appalling vista"): if inline citation is demanded for every summary of fact (read as, fact that is likely to be challenged), then almost every historical article that hasn't been subjected to the finest WP admin scrutiny could be unpicked and reduced to a stub. Perhaps that's in WP's long-term interest (Jimbo Wales reckons Brittannica will be 'crushed' within five years - Great! A competing source of knowledge sent packing. Buh-wah-ha-ha!)

In the end, I wonder what is the proper attribution of a source in a paragraph that broadly syntheses knowledge on a subject spanning decades or centuries? I've tried to be precise in addressing the issue, but it's tricky. Look at Talk:British Isles#Sources, where there's an ongoing debate about the origins of the term, which involves a broad view of history informed by piecemeal sources.--Shtove 01:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

The sentence in the first para, "British influence remains strong throughout the world, such as in economic practice, legal and governmental systems, militarily, society, sports (such as cricket and football), educational systems, and the English language itself.", should - I think - be expanded upon in the final Legacy section of this article. I've made a first stab at this... Gsd2000 01:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)