Talk:Electrical network

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Need Circuit Symbol Pictures 2 Power networks 3 Deleted paragraph with phantom loop 4 currents,geomagnetism,phantom loop comments 5 History of electronic circuits 6 Definition of electric networks 7 What is the article about? 8 Tellegen's theorem 9 Why is this page called Electric "Networks" 10 Major Edit 12/31/2006 11 Jan 1 2007 restoration 12 Network vs circuit 13 Red-linked acronym 14 Citations 15 Headline text

[edit] Need Circuit Symbol Pictures

Does anyone want me to draw eletric circuit symbols? -fonzy

I have a whole bunch of them. commons:User:Omegatron/Gallery#Modular_tables_of_images

There's also a bunch at commons:Category:Electrical_symbols — Omegatron 15:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Power networks

This article deals with light current networks. What about power networks ie electric power transmission and electricity distribution? Add them here or set up new pages? And I think single line circuit diagrams would help. Tiles 05:34 Apr 28, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted paragraph with phantom loop

I deleted this paragraph:

"The ground and atmosphere can be used to produce a Phantom Loop circuit, using the ground as a return and atmosphere as a feed. The energy is grounded out and inducted to the circuit again from the Geomagnetism phenonomen."

Perhaps I'll make it into a new phantom loop article, when I've figured out exactly what the term means. -- Heron

[edit] currents,geomagnetism,phantom loop comments

Howdy ... 1st ... currents are measured in amperes [look @ the wki article definition] ... Geomagnetism should be a wikilink to the Earth's magnetic field. 2nd ... The phantom loop is a term from NASA. Please look up the NASA research on the Electrodynamic Space Tethers. A "phantom loop" is the circuit a device uses in an natural environment to complete a circuit. Same thing that most wireless application use. Broadcasting out into the atmoshper and grounding out thus returing to the main circuit. This is shown in the induction of energy, then ultization in the Tether, and then the reemission of the energy into the ionosphere. This can occur on the surface of the earth too.

reddi 15:51 13 Jul 2003 (UTC) ... more later [revision reddi 01:52 14 Jul 2003 (UTC) ]

- Thank you for creating the phantom loop article, Reddi. You are mistaken, though, in saying that wireless transmission uses the ground as the return circuit. Wireless broadcasting does not rely on the existence of an electrical circuit between transmitter and receiver. It uses electromagnetic radiation, which can travel through free space just as easily as around a planet. -- Heron

- I find the term rather fascinating [especially since it's from rocket scientists =-] I found it in the technical paper on the electrodynamic tether from NASA ... in referencing some wireless transmissions, grounding is the return circuit. You return the energy to the potential of the earth [or ground ... the source of much of our energy here]. you can see it in the early radio patents (patents are neat). In wireless broadcasting, the electrical circuit between transmitter and receiver is the medium between them. This can take several forms [most commonly, solids, liquids, and gases). If it's an alternating system it can form a phantom loop in the air or in the ground [by returnin to the sources transciever]. AND yes ....electromagnetic radiation can travel through vacuum free space just as easily as through a medium. I understand that ... [matter o' fact, the vacuum creates electromagnetic energy ... see the quantum flux and casimir effect ] -- I'll try to wok on the phantom loop article to flesh it out, it's applicablt in alot of things IMO .... more later ... reddi 02:38 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

- The vacuum giveth and the vacuum taketh away, leaving naught but an effective potential energy, as useful for generating energy as a hole in the ground down which rocks can be thrown. For soon the hole will be full, and soon, the all the world's metal plates will be close together. -- Tim Starling 03:30 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that 1st part ... the vacuum giveth and the vacuum taketh ... from the potentials and back to the potentials .... as no one can capture energy ... it's always flowing in and flowing out ... it's what you do with it when you have it and how you manipulate it, that matters. But i thought you knew that ....

As useful for generating energy as a hole in the ground down which rocks can be thrown? What? .... hmmm mabey you need to read some real patents on electricity ... perferably Nikola Tesla's, but Edison or Armstong would do ya good ....

[as to the rocks representing the energy potentials] As soon the hole will be filled back in .... and then you take some more out to use =-]....

more later ... reddi 03:40 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Patents aren't exactly Phys. Rev.-quality science. I'll stick to textbooks, research papers and Scientific American, thank you very much. Except if I'm in need of some comic relief -- then I might head over to here. BTW it's spelt "maybe". -- Tim Starling 01:43 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Alot of electricity patents are exactly about physics [like the electrodynamic tether patent] ... applied physics ... go theorize all you want .... but when you wanna implement something, read up on how ppl do it. Oh and thank, sorry about the spelling infraction [check the badge] I didn't know the grammar force was here ... reddi 01:51 18 Jul 2003 (UTC) "Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." - Nikola Tesla

If I want applied physics I'll go here, not here. I'll have you know I topped my class in 3rd year lab, so don't go accusing me of having no grip on reality. Sorry about the spelling correction, I don't usually pick up on people's spelling. It was just annoying me. -- Tim Starling 05:10 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If you want applied physics, go to here or here or there (among the many other good sources) and try to look up some key terms in there [like electrodynamic] .... BUT definitely don't go to there.

A "lab" and the "chaos of reality" are 2 different things ... labs have controlled environments ... they are a bit different [i believe ... but i could be wrong]...

Congrates on the achievement though, always a good thing to do good [BTW, that's just a general quote on all of science, not directed @ you personally] .... try to forgive my americanish and spelling flaws also, as most stuff here in talk is done in haste [and sometimes in the articles too]. I can be annoying ... not that i try but i think i come off that way, pardon that too ... reddi 22:39 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] History of electronic circuits

Is anyone able to provide some references to the historical origins and development of electronic circuit schematics? Who was the first person/ group to propose the notation? Where, why? How has it been used and adopted? Etc. I think the article would benefit from a little more historical explanation. Sholto Maud 22:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of electric networks

An electrical network is an interconnection of electrical elements such as resistors, inductors, capacitors, diodes, switches and transistors. It can be as small as an integrated circuit on a silicon chip, or as large as an electricity distribution or transmission network.

I would have said that diodes and transistors ICs etc should not be included in this definition as these are electronic components. Network analysis usually deals with sources and impedances, if my memory serves me corectly.--Light current 22:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I see that I have commented before on this. I think we should define Network theory here as dealing only with sources and impedances (as per my book Electric Circuits by Joseph Edminster publ McGraw Hill 197X). Otherwise I think we may start straying into the SPICE territory and it may start to then get messy. I feel inclusion of transistors diodes etc belongs more under a heading of semiconductor circuit design and analysis. What do you think Heron? --Light current 19:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I thought I had expunged the small number of mentions of semiconductor devices from the article.--Light current 19:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

There are two issues here:

1. Whether the word electrical excludes or includes electronic devices.
2. Whether passive networks can contain sources or sinks.

On the first point, I think that this article should describe electrical networks in the broadest possible sense. All network types, such as linear and nonlinear, active and passive, series and parallel, unilateral and bilateral, all-pass and frequency-selective, are special cases of this definition and can be dealt with separately, either within this article or elsewhere. If we exclude any types of network from this article, then we're going to need a new higher-level article to deal with the whole subject. By the way, a whole chunk of this article is about linearization, which also contradicts the 'passive = linear' definition.

On the second point, my dictionary says that passive networks can't contain sources or sinks, which differs from what you just said. Passive networks probably deserve their own article, since they are fundamental analytical models and are a subject in their own right (hybrid parameters and all that). --Heron 20:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

My initial reactions.

• I believe that the word electrical should exclude electronic devices: electronic devices depend on charge carrier transport phenomena- linear electrical circuits (such as power networks) dont use non linear devices and dont generally depend on these phenomena for operation. . (Im not including AC DC and DC AC converters etc- just the normal distribution networks).
• In my book, yes passive networks can contain voltage and current sources to activate them- otherwise nothing would happen. Internal dependent sources - no! I assume thats what you were referring to.

No, nothing would happen, but that's the definition of a passive network. Things like attenuators, matching networks, terminators and filters are passive networks - they just sit there doing nothing until you connect a source to them. --Heron 12:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It is possible to work out the ABCD parameters without sources. However sources can be used to help in thinking about the problem, but they do not as such form a part of the network being analysed. In conclusion, I would say that ideal independent sources can be used if necessary.--Light current 13:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I will ponder your other comments and reply later.--Light current 20:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

You say: If we exclude any types of network from this article, then we're going to need a new higher-level article to deal with the whole subject. By the way, a whole chunk of this article is about linearization, which also contradicts the 'passive = linear' definition.

I dont think this is true. THis article can be about electrical (passive) networks and electronic circuit diagrams can, if necessary, be dealt with elsewhere. I have not seen the part of the article about linearisation only about computer analysis. Perhaps someone removed it.--Light current 13:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

As I asked before here, the question we must ask ourselves is: What is the article supposed to be about?--Light current 15:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is the article about?

Is it about:

• Networks
• network theory
• network analysis
• network design
• network components

It seems confused ATM and needs sorting.--Light current 22:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tellegen's theorem

I was surprised to note the absence of Tellegen's theorem. --Ancheta Wis 12:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is this page called Electric "Networks"

I've never heard electric circuits being called networks before, and the fact that searching for "electric circuits" redirects here makes me wonder in what language they're called "networks". The article itself refers to circuits quite alot - I think the mention of "networks" should be a small note, while the word "circuits" should become the main word. Am I wrong that the word "circuits" is the most prevalant word for these things? Fresheneesz Nov 3 2005 US West time 13:33

after writing that I realized that electric circuits are a subset of electric networks. Since electric circuits are a HUGE area of research and learning, circuits should have a separate article and should LINK to this one, not redirect to it. Fresheneesz Nov 3 2005 US West time 13:37

Hear hear! I don't see any reason why there can't be a page on electrical circuits that deals with the basics of voltage/current/resistance, and not electrical engineers and complex number theory. When I look up "electric circuit", I don't want to know about the difficulties in designing an efficient power distribution network (the leading subsection? Seriously?), I want to know about a battery, a wire, and a light bulb. --AdjectiveAnimal 17:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Im not sure about the difference (if there is any) between the defns of 'network' and 'circuit'. Some books dealing with passive circuits call them networks; whereas books dealing with active circuits tend to use the term 'circuits'. Im sure Ive had a similar discussion elesewher on this topic - but where?--Light current 18:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Edit 12/31/2006

This issue irritated me, too. I looked for a talk archive to see if there was anything about it, and came up dry. I am going to propose an editorial change, and in a few days, I will do it, unless I hear a well-reasoned objection.

• Change proposed:
  • Move the content of this page to Electric circuit, except for the comments that have to do exclusively with electric networks.
  • Modify all the pages I find on What Links Here so that they refer to electric circuits.

• Reasons for the change:
  • A bunch of electric devices which are connected together in a way that is NOT a circuit is just a bunch of junk. It does no work, as that term is understood in physics, so it has no function.
  • I can't claim to have read all the millions of articles which refer to electrical circuits, but in all my years, I never ran across an instance of "electrical networks" which are not circuits. It seems like a definition without a concept for it to refer to.
  • There are in fact electrical networks, but they are a specialized type of circuit which is used for distributing electricity - and I think there's a Wiki article on just that. So there should be a redirect to that page at least.

• • The small amount of text provided which is actually ON the topic of "electrical networks" does little to explain what the phrase means. If the phrase is of any use, it has to refer to an actual device or concept, even if purely theoretical or even imaginary. I would not want to see a Wikipedia article entitled "bunch of junk" for all these same reasons.

• What you can do:
  • If you agree with me, either do nothing, or drop me a note on my talk page.
  • If you disagree with me and want to see the article stay with the title "electrical networks", write your comments here and write a brief note on my talk page to let me know that you have weighed in on the issue.

• What I will do:
  • Wait a few days (not months)
  • Make the changes
  • Leave my comments here on this talk page

--Cbdorsett 12:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jan 1 2007 restoration

Cbdorsett, after a bit of wild good chase of trying to properly distinguish electronic circuits from electrical ones, I ended up reverting your major edit which was an improper move of contents that left this talk page behind. Please see the edits I've done that distinguish the circuit types that you had lumped as one.

I'm not opposed to moving electrical networks to electric circuits, but I oppose moving to electronic circuits. Dicklyon 21:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Network vs circuit

I see discussion here on the difference, if any, between an "electric circuit" and an "electric network". Well, I'm a computer nerd, not an EE, so my understanding of this is limited, but FWIW: At work we have these things called network analyzers. They have nothing to do with computer data networks. They analyze electrical networks. They can do this even if there is nothing like a circuit in the traditional sense. You can attach a device-under-test to only one port on the analyzer, and it can still make certain measurements (like signal reflection). I have no idea how much of this usage of "electrical network" applies to the current article, but I figured it is worth mentioning. Check out the Network analyzer article; it has some links to background information (which is way over my head). The article on Scattering parameters also seems like it has useful information. Hope this helps. --DragonHawk 08:21, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not convinced there's any accepted difference between an electrical circuit and an electrical network, but your network analyzer example does not contradict either that view or the one stated in the article. That is, it can treat an individual component such as a capacitor as a network, and anayze its impedance. Dicklyon 08:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I have no idea what I'm talking about here. I'm only trying to present information so that people who do understand this stuff (presumably, you) can do their research. The best definition I can find for "electrical network", as it pertains to the stuff I see at work, is at Scattering parameters#Background. The only reason I bring this up at all is that I know this equipment works on what they call an "open" calibration, where there is no circuit. For example, Network Analyzer Basics (PDF, 5.69 MB), Page 12, Paragraph 2, states. "Now let us leave our line open. This time, Ohm's law tells us that the open can support no current...". That doesn't seem like the definition of "circuit" I learned in my classes at school. I'll see if I can get one of the EE's at work to explain this stuff to me, so I can report back here. Again, this stuff is all way over my head, so if you don't think any of it applies, I'm willing to bow to your superior knowledge. I only bring it up in case you do find it useful. Thanks. --DragonHawk 09:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

There most certainly is a circuit when you connect a network analyzer to an open line. The circuit involves the analyzer in this case, and just because the line has infinite impedance at DC doesn't mean there's no current or no circuit. Dicklyon 19:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Okie dokie. I thought a circuit, ya know, made a circuit. As in a circle, a closed loop. Not one end of a cable hanging loose. But it appears I don't understand. As I already know I don't understand, that seems perfectly reasonable.  :) FWIW, I did ask the resident EE at work, and also the Chief Engineer (who is more of a materials guy, but still knows this stuff) if they had ever seen a formal definition of "network" as used in our shop, and they were both self-surprised to realize they had not. Apparently, this is just one of those things "everyone knows". —DragonHawk (talk) 20:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You are correct that a circuit needs a closed path. An "open" transmission line is a component that has an AC path, just not a DC path. When you connect it to a network analyzer, you get a closed circuit, a loop that includes your transmission line and the signal generator in the analyzer. By measuring the voltages and currents where those parts connect, you are observing the circuit behavior so you can draw conclusions about the network that is the external part of the circuit (which may itself be a circuit, depending on how you look at it). A network is any interconnection of components, whether other not there's a circuit. Dicklyon 21:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Red-linked acronym

If someone wants to explain EMTP we can have it in the article. But not as a red-linked acronym, which is just a meaningless teaser. Dicklyon 23:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Since one of my edits was summarily deleted, with a parting shot something along the lines of "go get some citations," I spent about 4 hours online reading glossaries, and here's what I came up with. I don't have easy access to an engineering library; I'll leave it up to the Silicon Valley folks to pitch in and help here.

• Mobile Electronics Glossary: Circuit: 1 Any closed path followed by electrical current. 2 A configuration of electrically or electromagnetically connected components or devices.

• Glossary of Electronics Terminology and Ensil International Corp. Glossary (one is a mirror of the other): Circuit: The interconnections of electrical elements and devices that perform a desired electrical function.

• Glossary - Basic Electronic Concepts: CIRCUIT - A single component or group of interconnected components powered by a source of voltage and configured according to specified rules. A circuit performs a specific or a predetermined general task.

• Dictionary of Electronics and DICTIONARY OF ELECTRONICS TERMS (one is a mirror of the other): circuit: Interconnection of components to provide an electrical path between two or more components.

• Glossary: circuit: A system of conduction mediums designed to pass an electric current.

• International Electrotechnical Vocabulary (IEV) online database: circuit: set of interconnected circuit elements [IEV number: 131-11-06].

• International Electrotechnical Vocabulary (IEV) online database: electric circuit; electric network: circuit consisting of electric circuit elements only. Note 1: In IEC 60050-151, the terms "electric circuit" and "electric network" have other meanings relative to devices and media. Note 2: The term "network" without qualifier is used in network topology (See 131-13-03) [IEV number: 131-11-07]

• The Free Dictionary by Farlex:

circuit:

1) A set of electronic components that perform a particular function in an electronic system.

(2) Same as communications channel.

• The Free Dictionary by Farlex:

electronic:

1. electronic - of or relating to electronics; concerned with or using devices that operate on principles governing the behavior of electrons; "electronic devices"

2. electronic - of or concerned with electrons; "electronic energy"

electronic:

1. Of or relating to electrons.

2. Of, based on, operated by, or otherwise involving the controlled conduction of electrons or other charge carriers, especially in a vacuum, gas, or semiconducting material.

3. Of, relating to, or produced by means of electronics: electronic navigation; electronic books.

4. Of or relating to music produced or altered by electronic means, as by a tape recorder or synthesizer.

5. Of, implemented on, or controlled by a computer or computer network.

electronic:

The use of electricity in intelligence-bearing devices, such as radios, TVs, instruments, computers and telecommunications. Electricity used as raw power for heat, light and motors is considered electrical, not electronic.

Although coined earlier, "Electronics" magazine (1930) popularized the term. The magazine subheading read "Electron Tubes - Their Radio, Audio, Visio and Industrial Applications." The term was derived from the electron (vacuum) tube.

• Genus Glossary of Terms:

Electronic circuit: Any complete pathway through which electrical current can flow.

• IC Knowledge, LLC Glossary of Integrated Circuit Terminology:

Electronic circuit: a collection of electronic elements that performs a prescribed function.

• Answers.com:

circuit (Electronics):

(a)A closed path followed or capable of being followed by an electric current.

(b)A configuration of electrically or electromagnetically connected components or devices.

Electronic component:

An electronic component is any indivisible electronic building block packaged in a discrete form with two or more connecting leads or metallic pads. Components are intended to be connected together, usually by soldering to a printed circuit board, to create an electronic circuit with a particular function (for example an amplifier, radio receiver, or oscillator). Components may be packaged singly (resistor, capacitor, transistor, diode etc.) or in more or less complex groups as integrated circuits (operational amplifier, resistor array, logic gate etc). Active components are sometimes called devices rather than components. [my emphasis, Cbdorsett 08:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC), but also note that this is a mirror off of original Wikipedia content.]

I have some thoughts about these, but will wait a while before posting them.

--Cbdorsett 10:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're referring to the edit that I reverted with "you'll need a citatin for that", it was about using electronic circuit to refer to a circuit of only electrical components, without electronic components. None of your references bear on such usage, do they? Dicklyon 16:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. As far as I can tell, there is no support whatsoever for the idea that an electronic circuit MUST contain vacuum tubes or transistors of some type. That's why I asked people to contribute definitions from (citable) hardcopy print sources. The cites I provided above were the entirety of what is available in free online glossaries on the Web on the questions of (1) circuit vs. network and (2) electrical vs. electronic. --Cbdorsett 10:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here are the statistics from Google searches:

• • "electrical circuit" 1,160,000
  • "electric circuit" 1,100,000
  • "electral circuit" 2
  • "electronic circuit" 1,170,000
  • "electrical network" 333,000
  • "electric network" 240,000
  • "electral network" 1 (In Chinese)
  • "electronic network" 716,000

--Cbdorsett 10:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you're arguing that the term "electronic circuit" is sometimes used to refer to circuits that contain no electronic components, just because you don't find a statement that says it should not be used that way. I'm asking for evidence that it is used that way, since that's what you claimed. Dicklyon 20:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

CB, I see you added some more definitions into the list above, including one that says an electronic circuit is any circuit that carries a current. Many of your sources are from random internet glossaries and such; for topics like this, where the terms are old and widely used, there will of course be a lot of variations and misunderstandings. I think it's best in such cases to try to base our definitions and content on the most reliable sources we can; to me, that means books; preferably good old respectable books. I perused a few old books at a used bookshop last night; the only definition of electronic circuit I could find was from about 1940, and it said it was a circuit that contained a vacuum tube, or something to that effect; the extension to solid-state electronics is obvious. And I'll grant you that resistors and capacitors are often called electronic components, even though they are not electronic, mostly because they are used in electronic circuts. However, I doubt that you'll find any definition or use of "electronic circuit" to specifically include circuits that contain only passive components and batteries; those are "electric circuits". Dicklyon 17:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headline text

Ilove colin p.