Talk:Evanescence/Archive 20061109

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Inappropriate Religious Reference? 2 Archived - Notes to remember 3 Picture 4 Track listing confirmed for The Open Door 5 'The Open Door Cover Picture 6 Not For Your Ears 7 EvBoard.com 'official' forum status 8 Where did Rocky go? 9 About Genre 10 Psychically? 11 Early demos? 12 genre 2 13 Protect? 14 Album Delay 15 Love of Adolf Hitler 16 The Open Door = Amy Lee solo album? 17 2006 Tour: Necessary? 18 Article reorganization 19 Mystery or Mystary? 20 GA Hold 20.1 Failed 21 1901? 22 External Links 23 Contradictory Release Dates 24 EvThreads.com 25 REMOVED - abuse section 26 Another Ev article's pictures have been gutted...

Inappropriate Religious Reference?

I'm not convinced that the reference to Amy Lee encountering an inspiring "true Word of Knowledge" is appropriate. Did she describe it as such, or is this an intrepretation by a Wikipedian? If the former, it should remain, but Wikipedia is no place for the latter. Stephen Aquila 13:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither am I, I must have removed about 10 times now from both this and the Amy Lee page, if it appears agin, just remove it.Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 13:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Archived - Notes to remember

Some notes from the old page

• It has been decided for now that the genre should remain as Alternative Rock, any attempts to change this without first starting a formal discusion on this page will be classed as vandalism.

• If any non official external links are to be added you must first give reasons here and let a discusion take place about the link, then depending on what is said it will be kept or not.

Thanks Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 11:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture

• I changed it again. This picture is better because it isn't cropped or anything, and you can see Amy's dress in it's entirety. :-)

• It's the official promo picture, and in the Evanescence ETEAM it is put there so it can be posted, so they Band has no problem with the picture being used. :-) After all, it is promoting in some way, shape, or form.

Dannycastillo 01:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Good photo, im going to change the tag on the photo (just so it doesnt get deleted), i guesss if its from the eteam we can license it as premission given but to play it safe i will but promo tag on it Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 09:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It does not matter if the promo tag is on it. The image must pass all criteria of WP:FUC to be considered fair use here. I have placed the appropriate tags on the image. It should be replaced or deleted right away. Roguegeek (talk) 03:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Track listing confirmed for The Open Door

Added track listing. Citking 18:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

im really sorry but that stuff goes on the album page (The Open Door), not on the actual band page. Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 20:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

'The Open Door Cover Picture

The picture for the cover of The Open Door does not look like a cover of a CD. It looks like a screen shot from http://www.evanescence.com/. I think the user who uploaded it is guessing that this is what the album cover will look like. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Unless someone can prove otherwise with a credible source, please do not re-add this image on to this page. --Gary van der Merwe 07:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

people are so impatient...i think he uploaded it fully knowing it wasnt the cover, if you could mistake that for an album cover you'd have to be pretty dumb. Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 09:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I uploaded it knowing it wasn't the cover but it's better than the no artwork thing.--Monkey13 21:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Speculation is not a substitute for a lack of information. That just causes confusion, and is rather annoying. This is an encyclopedia, we don't make guesses. The Son Of Nothing 14:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• LOLz! I'm so sure the cover of the album is going to look like that! I mean. It says the release date and it has a link. Wow! Somebody was dropped at child birth. Dannycastillo 17:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok people enough of this now, the uploaded has explained so please, lets get over it.Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 17:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I am to assume this new pic is real yeah?? Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 08:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Not For Your Ears

The album not for your ears is not mentioned in the article, I do not claim to be an expert but I know it was released in 30Nov 2002 and there were numerous tracks that have a more electic feel to them, it needs to be mentioned It would be best if someone with more knowledge of the album did a quick mention of it.

Ya'll can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not there because it's not a real album. It's a bootleg.The Son Of Nothing 16:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Got it in one Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 08:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Would it at least be possible to mention it on this page if only to say that it's not a real album? This talk page is the only thing I've found mentioning that, and it would help kill a lot of speculation about the album. It'd also be nice to have a little more info on it, like where the tracks on it originally came from. 71.12.171.24 09:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

That's really not necessary. The collection exists, yes, but it's not remotely important or noteworthy to their history. Lots of bands have had bootleg collections of unreleased songs thrown around, it just isn't important enough to talk about. The Son Of Nothing 13:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Like Toxicity II? grendel|khan 16:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because it exists elsewhere doesn't make it noteworthy or necessary (or right). -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 17:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

EvBoard.com 'official' forum status

EvBoard.com has never been the 'official' forum for Evanescence (evanescence.com did have an official forum but it was closed down due to the huge numbers of spammers/people writing many, many somewhat disturbing messages), and even around EvBoard.com itself the staff do point out that although band members do occasionally post on there, it's not in any way an 'official' site. Link at the bottom of the page should be chnaged to not say 'official' forum, unless someone can come up with some evidence from Wind-Up or a similar source which states EvBoard.com is the offical forum.

EvBoard was specifically mentioned by the band a few times, particularly in the linear notes of Anywhere But Home. It's pretty much the most official forum we've got. The Son Of Nothing 12:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I reworded it, its technically not official but it remains in links, see archive for discussion Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 14:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

After todays incident, Evboard.com is definitly not an official forum. Jamesinclair 23:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Where did Rocky go?

I happened to glance at the band members thingamy in the booklet for Fallen, and studio drummer Josh Freese is labelled as the drummer. So why did Rocky Gray not drum on the album? He was in the band before and after, and even co-wrote one of the songs on Fallen (Tourniquet), so why did he not drum on Fallen? If anyone knows the answer, it would definitely be valuable information for the article. U-Mos 12:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

At the time fallen was recorded the band was Amy Lee, Ben Moody and David Hodges. Alot of the work was session musicians. Rocky got credits on that song because its a modified version of a song the band he was in at the time did. Never be good enough

About Genre

Why can't we write "nu metal" and "goth (rock or metal)"? Obviously Evanescence are influenced from these two genres, members also like bands like Lacuna Coil, Korn and Papa Roach.

This point has been argued, debated, and fought over to the point of nausea. The genre listed is what Evanescence is classified as on MySpace - there hasn't been any official sources suitably claiming otherwise. The Son Of Nothing 15:01, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Is AllMusic a good source? - HR, 12:12, 23 August 2006

The MySpace is (technically) from the band itself. It's hard to get more valid than that. Besides, what the heck do music critics know? The Son Of Nothing 15:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably more than the members of some horrible mass-produced band. - 211.28.135.42 12:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

All songs from Evanescence's first studio release (Fallen) are listed as Metal on the CD itself and therefore I will change the genre from just alternative rock to alternative rock/metal. The source is Fallen itself, you can't get much better than that.

I own Fallen and not once do I see the CD state that their music is ANYTHING. Do you think you can tell us where you saw that on the CD, because I highly doubt it's there. Also, a little side note, I've been on MySpace a lot and from what I remember, there are a lot of Evanescence profiles listed under a bunch of genres, so I don't think that a site like that where people can post someone esle's music under whatever genre they want should considered be a reliable source. Sasuke-kun27 22:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't the genre once alternative rock/metal? What's rock pop alternative doing there? ~ EmeZxX ` 11:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

If you follow the cite, you'll see it comes from the band's myspace page, which has predefined genres they can select from. Apparently they selected rock, alternative, and pop (for whatever reason...). Also, replying to Sasuke above, www.myspace.com/evanescence apparently is the band's profile. Else it wouldn't be under the Music category, I don't think. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 15:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Good enough for me. If they describe themselves that way, then that's how it should be in the article. —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 00:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Psychically?

The history section says "The songs were altered psychically and musically by Lee". What does it mean to psychically alter a song, or is this a typo? Mrwhizzard 00:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

All fixed. There was a rash of strange edits, and I guess I didn't set my revert far enough... or something... The Son Of Nothing 03:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

They are not pop/rock. I have never seen or heard thenm being called that. They're albums have been labled as metal, therefore the genre should be changed to alternative/gothic rock/metal.

Early demos?

Could we maybe upload at least one early demo of a song in its entirety. The link that cites the fact that they encourage people to download the old songs, has a transcipt of where they - Lee and Moody - give express permission to do so. Obviously it would not be a good idea to risk a song that was finally included on Fallen etc. (as they may have given an exclusive licence to what is now Sony BMG or Wind-Up) but something that was never released other than on early unsigned CDs, to which Lee and Moody would definitely retain full copyright control of. Anyone else agree? - ^Рэд_хот 14:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I have all their demos on my computer, so I could probably do this if people see it necessary. It would be a good way to demonstrate their progression as a band. The Son Of Nothing 15:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I really dont think it would be possible for a entrire song, the song sample copyright tag states the reasons why, this means if it was uploaded we would have to use a different tag- and there arent any! Regardless of what the band says, without explict permisson to upload an entire song theres no chance of it happening. I dont really spend much time here any more but i will put a couple of songs up from Origin, only bout 30 secs though... Childzy ^{(Talk|Contribs)}

The song Origin is only 35 seconds long so that's a full song and about 30 seconds or listen here.--Monkey 13!!! 03:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"Origin" is hardly representative of Evanescence's music, given it has no lyrics and is nothing more than a lead-in for the second track. If there were to be a demo, it would need to be of a song that users have a chance of recognizing. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 12:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

genre 2

"he MySpace is (technically) from the band itself. It's hard to get more valid than that. Besides, what the heck do music critics know? The Son Of Nothing 15:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)"

If a source is from the band itself, I think that it isn't a good source, but it is the largest non-neutral point of view that we could use. Otherwise we should also agree with "crazy genres": Rhapsody members labelled themselves as a "hollywood metal" band, Dissection "satanic majestic metal" etc. However "alternative rock" is referred to other different bands, as I see in its page. :) I think that is better a complete web archive NOT made by the band itself or hard-to-die-supporters.

Myspace dosn't have a write-in genre option for bands, so there isn't the ability to make up genres as you said. Thus, a band is forced to put itself under a catagory.... I'm really sick of this topic. Unless Amy Lee gets in in public and specifically names an *exact* genre for the band, I really don't think there's anything left to debate.The Son Of Nothing 19:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Protect?

This page is beggining to be subjected to much scorn and vandilism by IP's. If this escalates we may need to get a temporary protection. UnDeRsCoRe 01:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Album Delay

I've just realized that when mentioning the TOD delay, this article states some tweaking to CMWYS as a cause, but it is public knowledge it had to do with Terry's stroke and recovery. I remember clearly that changes made to the lead single happened a long time after the final release date had been anounced. I don't speak perfect english and I'm not used to editing big chunks of info like that one, so could anyone take care of it please?

Love of Adolf Hitler

From the second paragraph under the History subtite

The pair discovered they shared a love of adolf hitler, pinochio and a few other artists, and they began to write songs together...

I did not realize that Lee and Moody were Adolf Hitler enthusiasts? Is this legit, or is it overlooked vandalism? Kurtto 15:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Hitler and Pinochio where no artists, so this must be vandalism —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Labda (talk • contribs).

Its definitely vandalism and shouldn't be there. If its ever there again, revert it. Sasuke-kun27 19:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

For the record, Hitler was indeed a half decent artist... if only someone in Austria had recognized that rather than rejecting him from arts school in his youth... LoB, Nov 2/06

The Open Door = Amy Lee solo album?

The band seems to be "some guys behind Amy Lee" now that Ben is gone.

"The band" didn't have much of a hand in writing 'Fallen' either (look at the writing credits and you'll see). It's not like it's any different now. Terry just replaced Ben as the co-writer.

If it says "Evanescence", it's not an Amy Lee solo album.

Ben was the band

No, Evanescence is the band, Ben was just a member :) -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 10:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

2006 Tour: Necessary?

Is it really necessary to have a 2006 Tour section on the page? I'm not their biggest fan, but I know they had to have more tours than this and we don't list them, do we? I've also noticed that no other band page that I've seen has tour info. Unless someone has a reason to keep it, it should be removed. --Sasuke-kun27 20:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's pretty pointless.

Seconded. I'm removing the section and moving the general tour information to the main Open Door article. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 07:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. --Sasuke-kun27 19:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Article reorganization

Right now, the article is in need of serious reorganization and rewording. Instead of grouping all events under sections by Album timeline, would it not be useful to have sections for albums, band changes, and other assorted data? I plan on doing this myself when I have a spare block of time (next week?), but if anyone would like to take a stab at it themselves in the meantime, please do. However, given that The Open Door has just been released, it seems several Evanescence articles has a terrific mish-mash of material that could be better organized, but an overall revamping of these articles might be better suited for after this newness has died down. Thoughts? -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 08:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Mystery or Mystary?

Evanescence released a promo EP in January of 2003; the article is at Mystary EP, which states that it was purposely misspelled. However, in adding an album box, I added an image, and noticed that it was spelled "Mystery" on the cover. I've never actually seen a copy of the album, so I don't have any hard, canonical evidence here. What's a good way to settle this? grendel|khan 16:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, this really is a mystery (or mystary, if you prefer). I've never seen a cd cover for this EP, and my personal belief is that the one you posted is something that a fan created on his/her computer just to fill in the gap. It might have been a promo image converted for use, as the font used for "Mystery" looks tacked on after-the-fact (also looks like Courier New font, which doesn't jive with the look). As far as I know, the band stated it was an intentional misspelling, but I don't believe I've seen a cite for that either. I'd say, leave as is until something can be proven one way or the other. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 17:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

GA Hold

It's Ok a couple things need to be sourced, the first paragraph of the Christian controversy stuff, and the info on the DVD sales are the ones I say, clean that up an i'll pass it.

†he Bread 00:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. We'll work on cleaning this up. Please stop by again if you have further suggestions. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 17:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Failed

Sorry hold ran out

†he Bread 03:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Huh, didn't know there was a time limit. Might have noted something to that effect when you first came around, eh? -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 08:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

1901?

Can someone tell me what "Years active 1901-Present" is doing in the profile box? I'm not sure of the exact year, so I did not correct it.

--59.176.33.159 07:06, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

It says 1998 as of your posting. There was some vandalism earlier (to answer your question), but it was quickly reverted. —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 07:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

External Links

I believe it would be appropriate to restrict official sites added to "External links" section to be English speaking sites. I say this after noticing an attempt to add an official Iranian site to the list (which actually didn't even function), and also because we have the official French site listed, which, even though it has an English version, doesn't actually convert much of the text on the site into English. Those links that refer to official sites in other languages should be properly placed on that language's entry for Evanescence. Thoughts? -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 17:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory Release Dates

The body of the article says that the album The Open Door was released the day after October 2. The chart showing release dates says September 25. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.105.126.76 (talk • contribs).

It says that it was released in the US on October 3. September 25 reflects the earliest known date, which is specified by Wikiproject Album; in this case it is the earliest known international release date. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 20:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

EvThreads.com

An anonymous user is claiming that this message board (fairly young, 30k total posts) is their official message board, and keeps making edits to this article that reflect that. Well, here's what my research dug up. EvThreads.com is indeed mentioned on Evanescence.com... HOWEVER, there is no mention at all of it being an official board. Here's what they have to say in their news post:

"EVTHREADS.COM New EvThreads.com forum just launched! Click here to check it out."

That is it. If I were to venture a guess as to what is going on here, I'd say that eager fans contacted the band and the band decided to give their new board some publicity by mentioning it in their news section. No mention of it being their "official" board.

From what I know of their history, they used to frequent a certain board (and perhaps it was their official one) but some people on that board were excessively mean to them and they deserted it. The board reincarnated itself as EvBoard.com and is now tightly moderated, and as a result band members post on there from time to time. This board boasts 560k posts AND has band members posting there... I find it highly unlikely that EvTHREADS is their official board, when EvBoard doesn't even claim that title. —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 21:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Roguegeek (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

EvThreads is officially a fan site for Evanescence, even though it was started by Amy Lee herself after EvBoard began charging for membership. However, she is the only band member that posts there, but, it can be reasoned that anything she posts can be considered official. EvThreads.com @ EvanescenceReference.info -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 01:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I highly doubt the site in question is fully endorsed by both Evanescence, their label, and Sony. Roguegeek (talk) 02:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I...believe that's what I just said. However, It doesn't need to be endorsed by all those entities to be used as a source if the one writing is Amy Lee. You think they endorsed the band when they broke from the Christian music scene several years ago? No, because that means a lost stream of revenue, but they had to follow the band's wishes in that situation. Awkward example, but it makes my point. Just because a site isn't officially affiliated with Evanescence doesn't mean the words of band members can't be cited. It simply means you can't rely on message boards when it comes to non-band members posting news.

Also, I should point out that EvBoard seems to have become a shadow of its former self now that it charges for membership (and even viewing of posts), and as I understand it, band members won't be going back there and will instead use EvThreads if they want to post. And that's a big "if". I don't think anyone but Lee wrote on EvBoard in the recent past. -- Huntster ^{T • @ • C} 08:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The prices they're charging are complete overkill ($20/member for a year subscription) and I'm sure that a strong community like that could have kept the servers running on donations. I have experience in web hosting and web design, hosting a forum with 400k posts myself, and I pay $13/mth out of my own pocket and get 55 GB bandwidth out of the deal. That price is just ridiculous, which leads me to suspect that this move is motivated by:

1) Greed. Somebody's making bank, even with all of the members that surely left after being shafted like that. If 100 people pay $20/yr, that's $2000 right there, which covers hosting expenses for a large forum for a year and leaves a HUGE profit margin.

2) Quality control. That forum has, in my opinion, been extremely strict about who can post and what. New members' posts are subjected to a moderation queue before appearing on the actual forum until they've established themselves as a properly socialized member of the community (of course, with the option of becoming a "paid subscriber" to get out of the queue immediately). Closing off the forum like they have further restricts who can post and, in their opinion, probably ups the quality by making it an exclusive community of devoted fans.

So Amy Lee has officially ditched that forum? —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 18:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

REMOVED - abuse section

I removed the whole section relating to the alleged abuse (see WP:BLP). Having read both sources, there is NOTHING to say that he was physically abusive. While her attorneys have described it as an "abusive relationship", and Lee has said various uncomplimentary things about Moody, there is no way we can definitively state he was physically and emotionally abusive. The most that should be included is a note about the attorney's description of the relationship, and possibly some quotes from Lee. I also removed the sentence regarding Moody's bipolar disorder and drug/alcohol problem as there is no source cited.exolon 05:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Yah, the stuff you removed set up some celebrity gossip alarms for me. Good call. Whether it's true or not, it should definitely be substantiated if it's to be included in an encyclopedia article. —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 11:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Another Ev article's pictures have been gutted...

Depressing. —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 17:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

This wouldn't be a problem if editors didn't upload failed fair use images. If you plan are uploading fair use images for use in this or any other article on Wikipedia, please make sure it is passes all criteria for a fair use image. Otherwise it will continue to get deleted. If someone is conciously and continually uploading failed fair use images, they may also be putting themselves at risk of being blocked. Read the policy WP:FU and WP:FUC. Roguegeek (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)