Talk:Fingerstyle guitar

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sorry to interfere, but if 'American fingerstyle guitar is a style of fingerpicking' (so the definition) guitarists from other countries also can play in that 'style' - or can't they (BTW: What about South American guitarists playing 'American' style) ??? Since there's no category 'Australian fingerstyle guitar' (or 'United Kingdom' (what about Stefan Grossman et al.?), what about creating a list of 'Non-American Guitarists playing American fingerstyle guitar' (if that's not too silly ;-) StefanWirz 07:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who removed Tommy Emmanuel from the list of guitarists here. The article on him says nothing about him playing American fingerstyle; if someone can come up with supporting evidence that he, in fact, does, then he can go back in. One needn't be American to be in the list, but one is required to play the style described in the article, no?

Stefan Grossman is American, albeit an ex-pat. And yes, lists like that would be too silly. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 07:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

ok - but then the reason you gave for removing him ('Tommy Emmanuel is an *Australian* guitarist. The article is *American fingerstyle guitar*.') has been a bit misleading (at least *I* have been mislead) - or is it my (as a German) misunderstanding of the english language ? StefanWirz 08:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh; I removed him because the article on him (right here in this so-called "encyclopedia") doesn't say he plays American fingerstyle guitar. Therefore, I would assume he doesn't play that style, unless, as I said, someone can show otherwise. (Being Australian, I'd assume he plays, well, Australian music. I could be wrong.) You're making this more complicated than it really is; nothing magical about the use of words here. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 09:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 "American fingerstyle guitar" now "Fingerstyle guitar" Page revamp underway. Pitch in! 2 Fingerstyle versus fingerpicking 3 Consensus on changes to article 4 A merging problem to think about 5 Slack key 6 Percussive Fingerstyle? 7 Fingerstyle jazz query

[edit] "American fingerstyle guitar" now "Fingerstyle guitar" Page revamp underway. Pitch in!

I have renamed this page. The exchange above proved to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we need to expand the scope of this article. There is a genre called "fingerstyle," and it's international. Musicians like Tommy Emmanuel are exemplary of this form. I don't mind incorporating "American fingerstyle" as a subset of the greater genre, but let's do this right.

First, let me quickly state the case for the page move:

• I get 1,500,000 Google hits for "fingerstyle", and only 3,440 for "American fingerstyle".
• There is a magazine called "Fingerstyle Guitar" [1]. There is no publication called "American Fingerstyle Guitar".
• In a search of the online archive of Acoustic Guitar magazine, the largest-circulation publication of its kind, I get 2,400 references to "fingerstyle", and 21 for "American fingerstyle".

As a dedicated fingerstyle guitar player myself, I hope we can make this a comprehensive overview of the discipline. Please, pitch in and help.

There also seems to be significant confusion between "fingerstyle" and "fingerpicking". Some use the terms synonymously, others see the latter as perhaps closer to how we describe "American fingerstyle" right now. Can anyone find a definitive distinction between the two? --Pleather 19:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to answer that last little item, "fingerstyle" and "fingerpicking" are exactly synonymous, so no need to parse or dig for deeper meaning here. I've always thought that "fingerstyle" was the less exact term, the one more likely to be used, say, by clueless journalists writing about a subject they have little knowledge of, so my preference is "fingerpicking". (Besides, you can then say "it's fingerpickin' good!") +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding American fingerstyle vs. fingerstyle: of course American fingerpicking is a subset of fingerpicking. One would have to be a horrendously Americo-centric idiot to believe otherwise; certainly clever and creative people outside the shores of the U.S. have figured out how to make complex, melodious music on six strings with fingers. However, it is a distinct style, or better put, is sui generis and deserves its own treatment.

By the way, one thing that bugged me just a little bit was your parenthetical comment about American fingerstyle ("as a genre, not a regional qualifier"), mainly because I think it's needless. "America" is simply too big to count as a "regional" qualifier (as opposed to, say, the Piedmont region or the Southwest region). I see what you're getting at—that it's not just a local variant of guitar playing—but I think if you leave this out, that will become self-evident from a well-written article. (After all, that's the whole point of having a separate section to cover American fingerpicking, that it is a separate genre.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for weighing in, Like2! I also thought "fingerpicking" and "fingerstyle" were synonymous, but the more I look into it, the more there seems to be a clear distinction. Two of the biggest producers of instructional DVDs (Homespun and Stephan Grossman's Guitar Workshop), for instance, treat them as distinct categories for instructional products. Homespun calls Fingerpicking "from the blues of Mississippi John Hurt to the country jazz of Merle Travis. Instruction in alternating thumb bass and syncopated melody notes of American fingerpicking, a favorite style among guitarists worldwide." Whereas Fingerstyle is everything else.

And then there the fact that "fingerpickers" do, in fact, often use picks (usually thumbpicks), while fingerstylers don't. I had hoped to steer clear of the whole issue, but it looks like it should be addressed now. Pleather 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but with all due respect to Homespun and Grossman, that fingerpicking/fingerstyle distinction is basically bullshit. Some fingerpickers use finger picks (like Kottke), and some don't; it's still the same style.

I think it's taxonomy time again, or at least a little categorization to try to clear things up. There are basically three ways to play the guitar (apart from exotic techniques like two-handed fretting/percussive playing or instruments like the Chapman Stick):

• Fingerpicking, meaning the playing of individual notes by plucking with the fingers, with or without fingerpicks; this technique basically covers the entire genre of so-called "classical" guitar.
  • A subcategory of this is so-called Travis picking, or any style of fingerpicking that uses alternating bass as ostinato.
• Flatpicking, or the playing of individual notes with a flatpick. While this term is somewhat inextricably tied to American country players, it applies equally to rock guitarists, even though they wouldn't be caught dead identifying themselves as "flatpickers".
• Strumming, or playing the instrument rhythmically by strumming all strings chordally, either with a pick or without. In the 50's era of folk music, this is basically all guitarists (e.g., Kingston Trio, et al), did.

This classification applies equally to classical, rock and folk genres of playing. There is some crossing over, for instance when a rock rhythm guitarist, who generally uses strumming (though in a more powerful way than, say, most folk players) may play melodic lines, changing to fingerpicking.

It might be worthwhile mentioning these other techniques in this article for the sake of completeness. +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fingerstyle versus fingerpicking

I'm sorry that you dismiss the distinction between fingerstyle and fingerpicking as "basically bullshit," Like2. Perhaps in your own personal experience the terms appear synonymous, but if we're going to draw from personal experience, I have to tell you it's very much the opposite with me. I have always understood them to be distinctly different. I've been looking into the matter, and while some people use the terms synonymously, it appears that "fingerpicking" is most often used as a subset of "fingerstyle". I quote the following from Homespun Video, the largest producer of music instruction DVDs:

"Finger style" refers to any type of music in which the strings are plucked by the fingers rather than by a pick. Classical guitarists invariably play finger style, as do many singers accompanying folk songs. (This "classical" style usually involves the thumb and three fingers --index, middle and ring). Many top players use this technique to play beautiful instrumentals in various forms. Martin Simpson's Celtic arrangements, Artie Traum's fingerstyle jazz and Keola Beamer's Hawaiian slack key guitar are some examples.

"Fingerpicking" (also called "thumb picking" or "alternating bass") is a term that is used to describe both a style and a type of music. It falls under the "fingerstyle" heading because it is played by the fingers, but it's generally used to play a specific type of folk, country-jazz and/or blues music. In this technique, the thumb maintains a steady rhythm on the low strings while the index, or index and middle fingers pick out melody and fill-in notes on the high strings. Originally developed by African American blues guitarists throughout the south imitating the bass and treble of piano rags, it was later adapted by white musicians - most notably Ike Everly, Merle Travis and Chet Atkins - who have created a blues/jazz/country hybrid that is extremely popular. Although usually played on acoustic guitars, Travis himself often played on hollow-body electrics, as do many other players.[2]

Other quotes:

"Fingerpicking falls under the fingerstyle category of ways to play the guitar." Richard Gillman, Fingerpicking Guitar [3].

"I've always called it fingerstyle. I have always seen chicken-pickin' defined as a subset of the fingerstyle technique. My classical/fingerstyle instructor from my teenage days was a master of this. He *made* me learn this style. [4]

Additionally, let me state these statistics:

• I get 1,500,000 Google hits for "fingerstyle", and only 822,000 "fingerpicking".
• There is a magazine called "Fingerstyle Guitar" [5]. There is no publication called "Fingerpicking Guitar".
• In a search of the online archive of Acoustic Guitar magazine, the largest-circulation publication of its kind, I get 2,400 references to "fingerstyle", and 1,090 for "fingerpicking".

I agree with the general thrust of Like2Be's suggestion, that these two articles should be combined. But NOT because they are synonymous. Fingerpicking should be discussed within the greater realm of fingerstyle. --Pleather 08:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is a case of there being a distinction without a difference (or is that a difference without a distinction? I always get that mixed up). Notwithstanding the fact that there are certain connotations associated with "fingerpicking", in that one would not normally refer to a classical guitarist as a "fingerpicker". But keep in mind that not all players who fingerpick use finger picks, so we ought to just bury this myth altogether. (In other words, it really has nothing to do with using picks or not—as opposed to flatpicking, which by definition must use a plectrum.)

I would argue for treating this topic functionally, as a matter of the technique of playing the guitar first, with styles treated secondarily. It would make it much more clear that way, not to mention easier to write and organize. So, using whatever term is agreed upon for fingerpicking, we can say that classical guitarists, folk fingerpickers and all who fall into the category of "fingerstyle" players use this technique (as opposed to flatpicking and strumming, the only two other possible techniques). My own preference would be to use the term "fingerpicking" (and taking pains to explain that it isn't limited to the narrow definition given above), but I'm open to suggestions.

To borrow from another editor commenting on whether the term "fiddler" can apply to all violinists, it would be useful to make clear distinctions between denotation and connotation when dealing with these terms (fingerstyle/fingerpicking), denotation being what the term actually means, connotation being the other connections and colorations that the term brings to mind. +ILike2BeAnonymous 08:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus on changes to article

You've hit the nail on the head with the "fiddle" versus "violin" metaphor. They are technically synonymous, but the real-world connotation is different.

I think these are the key points we need to make in this article:

• 1.) Fingerstyle is used to refer to both a technique and a group of musical genres.
• 2.) While some use fingerstyle and fingerpicking synonymously, others use the latter to connote one or more of those genres.
• 3.) As a technique, it does not exclude the use of picks--only flatpicks, held between the thumb and forefinger. Many fingerstyle musicians attach picks to individual fingers, or use a combination of thumbpick and fingers.

That's a starting point. We can build from there. --Pleather 17:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You have my stamp of approval. (Plus you seem willing to do the work, and are therefore less lazy than I.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually the flatpick may be used in place of a thumbpick. The pick is held betweeen the thumb and forefinger as usual but the middle and possibly the ring finger take on picking duties.The Smilodon 01:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes; I think of that as kind of a hybrid of flatpicking and fingerpicking. 02:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there's already an article on that technique: Hybrid picking. I will most definitely link to it. --Pleather 03:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Aaargh, just what we need, another article. I think it should be merged into this one as well. What do you think? +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

One more thing: if the article ends up being merged into Fingerstyle guitar, then Fingerpicking should become a redirect to it. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A merging problem to think about

One of the issues of this merge that no one has mentioned to this point is this: Fingerstyle guitar is more inclusive for fingerstyle guitar playing, but fingerpicking can include other instruments (the banjo comes to mind, but of course also includes mandolin, dulcimer, harp, lute, vihuela, and a plethora of non-western instruments). --Amazzing5 15:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Your point is well taken, and we've already been working out how to address that. The merged article will likely be called just fingerstyle (right now, the term redirects into fingerpicking, which is equally guitar-centric). We will address it on the meta-instrumental level in the first paragraph, then drill down into guitars specifically. This makes sense because while other instruments are played with the fingers, only in the case of the guitar are both terms (fingerstyle and fingerpicking) commonly used. And only in the case of the guitar do they refer not only to a technique, but to a set of musical genres as well. Hope this address your concerns. --Pleather 16:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

No; I'm sure you were aware of it and just forgot, but the term definitely applies to the banjo, especially as regards both bluegrass and earlier "old-timey" styles of playing. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It's good of you to bring it up, but no, I didn't forget banjo. My understanding (and correct me if you wish) is that the banjo, like the harp, is an inherently fingerpicked/strummed instrument; if you took a flatpick to it, you'd be something of a novelty act. Alternately, the mandolin and the bouzouki are inherently flatpicked instruments; they're too small to put out sufficient volume otherwise, and the flatpick's oscillation between grouped strings is a key component to their sound.

[Allow me to interject here briefly] Actually, the banjo is not "inherently fingerpicked", as shown by the tenor banjo and by Dixieland banjo playing, both using a pick. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Looks like you're right there. I'll drop the "inherently" argument. Do we want Fingerpicking to become a disambiguation page, perhaps? Pleather 17:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I think not, and here I'd argue from the other side: the bulk of this technique belongs to the guitar, so having one article and no disambiguation page would be cleaner and simpler. The article should, however, be sure to point out the use of this technique on other instruments as applicable (certainly banjo, perhaps others, though I can't think of any offhand: are we sure, for instance, that there aren't any Asian or African instruments that use this technique? Always remember: TWIAVBP.) +ILike2BeAnonymous 18:00, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of instruments that CAN, and often are, plucked with the fingers. But when it comes to an instrument whose repertoire is clearly demarcated between flatpicking and fingerpicking/fingerstyle, we're really only talking about the guitar. This, of course, is what we'll have to make clear in the article itself. Does that make sense?--Pleather 17:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As a note to that, both the lute (in its various forms) and the vihuela have a history of being played with the fingers and with plectrums. As for being demarcated, it is a similar demarcation as with the guitar because of the limitations/advantages of both techniques. The development of playing the lute 'fingerstyle' happened in the middle of the renaissance to be able to play polyphonic music. --Amazzing5 18:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

MERGE, because:

1 - There are components of either thing's articles lying in the other's... It is whole warped up. 2 - The FINGER-using (playing/picking/style) enciclopedically must be in one article... Either one major article, about all techiniques with playing a guitar with fingers, and corresponding sub-articles of fingerstyle, fingerpicking and hybrid picking, either all separate articles. 3 - There are too much links between the articles... You can't fully understand one without reading another. 4 - The article are a bit too confused, for most guitarist will be searching all FINGER-GUITAR articles to find, what's this or that meaning. CONFUSED, we get, at such complex words! =) And, at last, enciclopedically, it is "hard-readable", if you understand, the thing, when an article is shouting at itself about being amateur, incomplete, and other ways lame... 5 - Fingerpicking is a technique of Fingerstyle guitar, as sweep-picking, or alternate-picking is in pick... AND hybrid picking should be mentioned in both the articles 'bout fingerstyle and "pick-style" guitar, because it refert to combining 'em up... BUT:

If someone will expand and clean these articles, and finally include here a basic description of finger picking and hybrid-picking with links to appropriate articles, thay will look good separately... This way leave them separate. OTHER - MERGE!

Echad 02:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slack key

Plugged in a short (but not too stubby, I hope) section that links to the slack key article-in-progress. RLetson 22:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Not to start one of those is not-is too arguments, but I removed Bob Brozman from the list of prominent slack key players. While Bob does play slack key, his primary instruments are slide and lap steel. I've seen him play uke as well, but one wouldn't put him on a list of influential uke players. RLetson 17:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Percussive Fingerstyle?

I'm a fingerstyle guitarist and I've never heard of Percussive Fingerstyle. I don't NECESSARILY think it's a bogus category. Maybe there are enough folks like Preston Reed and Kaki King and obviously the late Michael Hedges to define this as a category. If we go with it we should mention Hedges and FLAMENCO, where folks have been percussive on the guitar for 150 years or so. What do you all think? Dalemi 00:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be an emerging category label--what we used to call "tapping" or "slapping" and associate with Hedges and Reed. A quick & dirty Google shows some uses of "percussive" as an ordinary adjective that describes a technique and some that are clearly meant to describe a style or school of playing--there's a how-to article in a recent Acoustic Guitar magazine with that as the title. I suspect that this heading in a Wiki article is the leading edge of a newish way of talking about the style. RLetson 17:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fingerstyle jazz query

Can someone supply sources for Lang, Kress, and Van Eps as fingerstyle players? The recordings I've heard all sound pick-based, but I'm willing to be corrected on this. (My suspicion is that for these players fingerstyle was the exception--as was the case with Django, who recorded a couple fingerstyle solos.) In fact, even the Joe Pass reference would benefit from a source or example (from liner notes or a video, for example), since much of Pass's work is pickstyle. Breau, I think, can safely be left as is. Unmentioned (and quite significant) are Laurindo Almeida and Charlie Byrd, along with the whole South American and African schools (Baden Powell, Bola Sete). RLetson 17:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)