Talk:Fleet captain (Star Trek)

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[edit] Speculative comments

Both of these are phrased speculatively -- "might be"s and "may be"s are editors' theories and look like original research. Can someone offer a rephrase or cite a source (hopefully more than a fanboy site)? Otherwise they should be excised (yet again). --EEMeltonIV 11:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

"The Starfleet rank may be an honorary title, bestowed upon senior and successful captains or only under certain circumstances. This would explain instances where regular captains are promoted to the Admiralty without ever holding the rank of fleet captain."

"Star Trek: Deep Space Nine's "Inquisition" may show a modern fleet captain insignia, that being four collar pips above a gold bar. The insignia is worn by Section 31 Operative Luther Sloan, who is referred to only by the title "Deputy Director" and who seems to outrank Captain Benjamin Sisko."

The first statement needs to be there (in some form) so that there is clarification that several characters have "skipped" the rank and it may be honorary. The second statement is heavily referenced in fan literature of the Star Trek Expanded Universe. Sloan's insignia was at once picked up by fans as a Fleet Captain equivalent. It was not mentioned by the producers, or in the show, however has since appeared in novels, magizines, tech manuals, etc. Exact sources I may be able to find next year when I off of a military deployment. -Husnock 12:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I see the DSN insignia was again removed. That should be discussed, since it appears in several fan sources such as POkcet Books, etc. Also Michael Okuka stated that it was probably the rank of Fleet Captain. I may not be able to contribute that much to this, as I am travling overseas, but tha section should stay in unless there is an extremely good reason to remove it. -Husnock 05:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If a verifiable source cannot be provided, then it should not be there. The Okuda/convention thing I suppose suffices as a tenuous citation, but it would be nice to have something in print. Perhaps when you get back from OEF. --EEMeltonIV 06:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article gutting

What's going on here? Why is this article being gutted? It used to be pretty cool, now half the pictures are gone and there are some very nasty edit comments about sources being fake. I.M.W.T.K. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.42.2.21 (talk • contribs).

The material I removed is either uncited, irrelevant, or from a non-reliable source. --EEMeltonIV 15:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, honestly, I looked at the entire article and its history before making my recent changes. The massive removal of material and pictures kinda looks like a personal thing between some of the users. There is plenty of non-canon stuff out there that supports the insignias and information that was in here before all of these cuts. Since we're not on Memory Alpha, where canon is only accepted, this material should be in there. Fair enough? -38.119.112.189 11:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but it still requires a citation, canon or non, and original research, no matter how plausible, doesn't belong at all. See Starfleet ranks and insignia and its talk page for the relevant dead horse. --EEMeltonIV 12:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Sloan wears this insignia that may or may not be a fleet captain's insignia -- 'it has been suggested' but we can't actually identify who's done the suggesting or when or where, let alone whether it's a reliable source" stuff sat in the article for months on end before finally being removed. Please do not re-add uncited material -- "I think it's out there" is not a compelling rationale for inclusion. The fact that it sat there for so long and never garnered this supposed substantiation from a reliable, secondary source makes me think no such source exists -- and the burden of proof is on whomever adds it. --EEMeltonIV 04:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not up on exactly what was going for months past, except that when I first found this article, it had been heavily cut and alot of the cutting seemed to stem from conflicts between users on a personal level rather than lack of validity of the information. Point is, the Sloan insignia has been picked up by fans as being Fleet Captain and that shoudl be discussed in this article somehow. Check out this web search I did [1] and you can see there's a lot of material out there about this rank and its possible insignia. The possible insignias should be discussed and Sloan's is one such possible insignia. Lets not have an edit war. -38.119.112.187 06:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

All of the results that appear are from fanboy sites; none of them are reliable sources. Additionally, WP:THEFANSLIKEIT is not Wikipedia policy for inclusion of information - otherwise every wingnut hypothesis would warrant inclusion. "I will look for a source" simply doesn't cut it. Where are you going to look for a source? How are you going to reliably attribute this information to meet Wikipedia's notability standards? The reason this article was heavily cut was because most of the information was unsubstantiated fanboy assertions and original research, which should not be included here. Perhaps you'd be more comfortable with [Memory Alpha]. I won't revert it because that'd be a violation of the WP:3RR-within-24-hours policy -- but lacking a citation to reliable source at the end of the weekend, I'll once again remove this information whose connection to the fleet captain rank is speculative. Anyhow, welcome (back?) to Wikipedia. --EEMeltonIV 10:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont know what a fanboy or a wingnut is, but it doesn't sound very nice and I hope you're not applying those terms to me. Lets keep name calling out of this, I've tried to be mature here. I am not attempting to write that Sloan's insignia IS that of Fleet Captain, only that the fan community has picked it up as such. As evidence, you can see the dozens of internet hits and I found two websites which gave his insignia as Fleet Captain. The frequency of its inclusion in fandom is enough to at least mention that fact in this article. You can remove it if you want, but I will probably put it back later. I actually have big plans for this article and will do more research as time goes by. -38.119.112.187 04:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can cite a published, reliable, secondary source that talks about how "the fan community has picked it up," then it's fine to include -- however, using your own Google search is original research. --EEMeltonIV 04:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the material you keep re-inserting doesn't mention fandom at all. Considering there's virtually no published, reliable information on this rank, I'm curious as to what your "big plans" are and what sources you're drawing upon for your research. --EEMeltonIV 05:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll check around and see what comes up. I once wrote a Star Trek novel for Pocket Books so the simple course would be to devote my energy to writing a ranks and insignia manual rather than fighting it out here. I tried it once and ran into huge problems with those creatures called the Okudas. They seem to feel that they have complete rights to all technical manuals regarding Star Trek and have the people at S&S wrapped around the little finger. Its a very hard market to break into. Until next time. -38.119.112.189 12:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Also require citation

These assertions have been here for months and still don't have citations. Please re-add to article when {{citation needed}] can be plugged with actual source.

However, 1967 notes from Starfleet uniform designer William Ware Theiss indicate that fleet captain would be indicated by three solid sleeve stripes, fitting with the captain insignia of two stripes with a center hash mark. This insignia later appears in several Star Trek magazines and technical manuals.^{[citation needed]}

Garth's proposed fleet captain insignia has only appeared in a draft of The Star Trek Chronology: an airbrushed picture of Steve Ihnat was redrawn to show Garth wearing the pilot episodes' heavy velor gold uniform shirt with three solid stripes on the sleeve.^{[citation needed]} The picture was not placed into the final book.

--EEMeltonIV 04:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats fair enough. I have heard about the Theiss notes, but finding them could be a real bitch since he's dead and his estate is very tight about releasing anything regarding his Star Trek work. Who was the guy who invented the movie pins? I hear his material is a heck of a lot easier to come by. -38.119.112.189 12:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)