Talk:Goebbels children

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Contents 1 Images 2 Just an FYI 3 Date conflict 4 Just a note 5 Harald Quandt 6 Childrens' baptism 7 Video

[edit] Images

I edited the pictures again. If anyone disagrees with the edits, keep in mind that image "Voss-called-to-identify.jpg" was overlapping text, and there was a lot of white space in the bottom section. Also, the childrens sections were confusing and a bit muddled together. Cheezerman 07:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Nope, no problems here - glad to have you try to fix them up, I've been a bit frustrated trying to fix it up earlier. Looks good :) Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 19:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

In the 1942 family portrait, and the yellow-tinted one, Hedde, Helga, Hilde and Holde seem to be wearing matching necklaces. Just a note. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 20:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

http://www.germaniainternational.com/images/goebbelsspecialchest31.jpg they are wearing the necklaces as well

About the edits, while I largely agreed with your changes, the recent revert restored all the parts I didn't agree with ;) I think the beauty of Wikipedia is that we don't have to go into detail about what was going on in the Battle of Berlin, because we just say Battle of Berlin and people can click for a full comprehensive context. Again, same with Fuhrerbunker. Adding a link to Magda's page on the murders does a disservice, since I think the bulk of information on their murders should be on *this* page, not hers. Also, what date Hitler killed himself is inconsequential to the Goebbels children, and *definitely* shouldn't be mentioned as a random point in the opening. If you're up for it though, I'd love it if you could find more information on the individual children. :) Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 02:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

For some details you mention I may agree, but the main thing is (I repeat): do not leave out the main info (the murders) assuming that the reader already knows this; also, this main info belongs at the top.--Patrick 09:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

How about if the last sentence in the top part is simply "Ultimately, the Goebbel's six children were killed as part of their parents' murder-suicide" ? Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 17:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You forget the date and the method.--Patrick 00:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't forget it, but details go in the main section about their deaths, which is at the end. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 01:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Normally the date of death is even in the first sentence of a biography.--Patrick 02:38, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

No, though often you will see "Joshua Sherurcij (1845-1906) was a...", but biographies identify who the person is which often involves mentioning their claim to fame, then work chronologically. Since we are dealing with 7 different people in this article, we can't say "The Goebbels children (1889-1901, 1875-1904, 1875-1933, 1888-1899, etcetera)", so we identify who they are, then get into giving an encyclopedic article. You're welcome to start a RfC if you're really that adamant about it, but I can pretty much assure you that nobody's going to agree that the opening sentences should be describing the Battle of Berlin, what architecture the Fuhrerbunker was built beneath, or that Hitler died on April 30th. We identify who the children are, then we build a context and chronology around what little is known of them. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 03:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

To avoid too much duplication, it is sufficient that the lead section contains the info common to all six children: date of death, murder by their mother, morphine, cyanide capsule. The most important of these are the first two, they can be put in the opening pararaph, the other two can come later in the lead section.--Patrick 10:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just an FYI

Since this article seems to have gained a few more mini-edit-disputes than usual, in its short life since I moved it from User:Sherurcij/children, I figured I'd just clear up that where things may not be definite fact coming out of the Soviet wartime propaganda, I appreciate that we carefully use words like "it was ruled to be", or "led to the conclusion", since sometimes if you trace back "Where were the autopsies done?" or "Who was called to identify them?" you'll discover there was a lot of guesswork done and history will never be certain.

On an unrelated note, I found an offhand reference saying When the bodies of Josef and Magda Goebbels were found, they were put on display and photographed from every angle, even on the autopsy table. here and Captioning one of the five, (they) observe: "Russian photograph of the autopsy of Dr. Joseph Goebbels (courtesy of 'The death of Adolf Hitler' by Lev Bezymenski, 1968). A large number of Russian doctors and medical personnel pose in the background. here ... so if anybody wants to have me forever indebted to you, finding those photographs would be great (especially if they presumably included the children). Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 22:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The photos do help to illustrate what the extremes of fanatacism can result in. As I'd mentioned elsewhere, I'd never seen these photos before but they are very much as I had imagined. How horrifying. Wyss 00:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date conflict

Just a note on a sentence in the article: "As the final group including Junge and the pilot Hanna Reitsch prepared to leave the bunker, they carried letters to the outside world from those remaining". If you'll look at the bottom here, on the "Final occupants of the Führerbunker"-part, you'll see that Reitsch left the bunker on April 23rd, while we don't know when Junge left. While I realize that the sentence in question doesn't say that they left together, it suggests that they did, in my opinion. Someone might want to edit it so that it's more accurate, or dismiss my whole litte idea with a proper argument :p --Ojan 17:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for catching this. I've also changed Junge's departure date in the template from uncertain to May 1. Moreover, I believe she was in the large breakout party initially "led" by Bormann that evening. Wyss 19:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just a note

"The Goebbels autopsies" were supposedly released in a book titled Der Tod von Adolf Hitler in 1982 by Lev Bezymenski...you know, if anybody wanted to get me a nice birthday gift ;) Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 07:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harald Quandt

I´ve just corrected the time of his birth again: He definitely was born in 1921, the same year when Magda married his father. To prove this, just look at his own article in Wikipedia. I´m a bit angry because I suppose to have corrected this date just some days ago, and now someone has deleted the correction again. Please let it stand this time.139.6.1.17 16:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Childrens' baptism

What is the relevance of noting that none of the children were baptised? Stack 03:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Unlike saying "None of the children had red hair", baptism was an extremely common process in their environment, and they were notable for *not* being baptised just like we may make note if Tom Cruise had been born via a c-section (not that he is) because it's out of the ordinary. It also offers a small hint of Magda's religious persuasion, which was later used as justification for killing the children (reincarnation, etc) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what Magda Goebbels's personal beliefs were, apart from Hitler-worship, but Nazi ideology was hostile to Christianity and it would have been very surprising for a senior Nazi like Goebbels to have his children baptised. Adam 05:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, I just found this which says they were baptised. If we can get confirmation, either way, I think it's worth including a citation in the article. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video

Thank you for posting a link to the video footage of the children. They were beautiful. It's sad to think that their fates, had they not been killed, would have been equally as tragic, full of pain and guilt at not knowing what their father had done. Marialadouce | parlami 17:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Had they not been killed they would have been captured by the Russians and never heard of again. Adam 22:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)