Talk:Golden age hip hop

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This article was nominated for deletion on 18 May 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Contents 1 Golden age? 2 Post-AfD chat 3 post afd-move 4 Why are these years the golden age? 5 Significant albums? 6 Silver Age 7 Golden age dates 8 New Jack swing era?

[edit] Golden age?

I was just wondering where the term "golden age" comes from? As the article has no citations it seems like a bit of orginal research. Is it possible to put some references into the article? - Master Of Ninja 18:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

It comes from nowhere. There is no golden age of hip hop. This is nothing more than an essay. PennyGWoods 22:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

The 'Golden Age' just means the best time of Hip-Hop (The early 90's, in my opinion). And also, if you have nothing good to say, then shut up, because people don't really want to hear negative crap. Or, I don't. He asked a question, you didn't have to insult the article if you don't, and you clearly don't, know the answer to it. The word 'Golden Age' is just a term used for the beginning, or the most interesting period of something such as a fad, or even existance itself in more medieval times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.107.246.184 (talk • contribs).

Golden Age? I always referred to golden age as post new school, and pre-gangster. It was the renaissance of hip hop where new styles were being explored. There was more variety in subjects, and different styles of music were being explored, just like old school hip hop was attempting to do. With the introduction of new school in 1983 (arguably with Run DMC's "Sucker MCs", the golden age came shortly after around 1986, and definitely was in effect with the release of Run DMC's "Raising Hell", Public Enemy's "Yo Bum Rush The Show", and Boogie Down Production's "Criminal Minded." I guess a few years of playing around with the new school style was required before the golden age could officially begin.

I guess the semantics of "golden age" could be argued, but there was a definite distinction to that time period of music between 1986 to 1993. After gangsta, it all became a bit derivative and the "golden" era had ended. GDaKine 05:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)gDaKine

I feel the Goldne age of Hip Hop was from 1985-1997

Golden Age, Entire Concept Ridiculous! I disagree with the entire concept of a golden age at all. It seems to me that people want to take their favorite period in hip hop and call it the golden age.

I think the term golden age is completely ridiculous. No era can truly be defined as golden. 79-83 is one era, 83-86 another, 86-91 another, 91-94 another. Name them what you want, but neither can truly be called golden. It just depends on your style and taste.

[edit] Post-AfD chat

Hi. Since the article for deletion debate seems to be moving towards keeping the article, I would like to suggest some steps to make this article better.

1. References: Everyone keeps on saying that the golden age is mentioned everywhere; put some references in to make sure people know where it comes from! This was one of my major points on the page that the source can be followed. See Wikipedia:Citing_sources and the <ref> element. I think some citationneeded placeholders might be required.
2. Move the list of golden age musicians etc. to a different page, and just mention the notable few. Otherwsie lists like this tend to become unmanageable with everyone adding in their own favourite artists into it.
3. If the golden age is from 1986, why is there a line saying that it was the point where Def Jam was founded, when later on in the article Def Jam is linked with 1984?

Comments? Suggestions? - Master Of Ninja 08:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The article is missing a history section like the similar Old school hip hop article. I think the article should read more like a timeline stating how things changed over the years, who introduced what, when.... etc.? Anyone agree? - Tutmosis 02:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] post afd-move

We should rename this to golden age hip hop. To call it "The golden age of hip hop" is like saying its a definite period, when, to be honest, there is some bluriness. With this new name, the article could cover various opinions.--Urthogie 10:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. If you remember, the article was originally named just that. As a newbie to both Wikipedia and WP:HH, I asked for it to be moved, and gave a long explanation as to why. You, unfortunately, listened to me and agreed, instead of smacking me for my idiocy. Anyway, I'll move it back when I have a chance, unless anyone objects. That way it will match in nomenclature with Old school hip hop. Λυδαcιτγ^{(TheJabberwock)} 03:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've closed the discussion and moved the article, deleting the original redirect that was there. Clean it up and reference it, please.  RasputinAXP  c 10:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

We'll start referencing.--Urthogie 15:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Uhh... I'm not sure about this, so I'm reluctant to make the change unilaterally, but wouldn't Profile [1] be considered the first independent golden age record label? As I have understood it, almost no hip hop was affiliated with major labels early on (Kurtis Blow being a major exception.[2])

Freedomchild 06:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The golden age of hip hop didn't begin with golden age artists, but rather with their popularity and influence throughout the hip hop culture.--Urthogie 08:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, but in the article it says "During this period, Def Jam became the first independent hip hop record label." During the early days of hip hop there was no major label support for the music. Almost everything was released independently. (i.e. Sugar Hill, Profile, Sleeping Bag/Fresh, Enjoy, Select) Kurtis blow is the only exception I know of for this era. So it seems to be misleading to say that Def Jam was the first independent label. Unless I'm misunderstanding what the original poster meant to say. Freedomchild 09:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see you're right. That should be clarified.--Urthogie 15:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why are these years the golden age?

I wonder why those years are considered "the golden age" meanwhile 1994-1996 saw such classic albums as:

• The Notorious B.I.G. - Ready to Die (1994)
• Nas - Illmatic (1994)
• OutKast - Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik (1994)
• Common - Resurrection (1994)
• Jeru the Damaja - The Sun Rises in the East (1994)
• Method Man - Tical (1994)
• Redman - Dare Iz A Darkside (1994)
• Gang Starr - Hard to Earn (1994)
• Mobb Deep - The Infamous (1995)
• Raekwon - Only Built 4 Cuban Linx... (1995)
• Onyx - All We Got Iz Us (1995)
• GZA - Liquid Swords (1995)
• Smif-N-Wessun - Dah Shinin' (1995)
• Das EFX - Hold It Down (1995)
• AZ - Doe or Die (1995)
• Ol' Dirty Bastard - Return to the 36 Chambers: The Dirty Version (1995)
• Bone Thugs - E. 1999 Eternal (1995)
• KRS-One - KRS-One (1995)
• Fat Joe - Jealous One's Envy (1995)
• Nas - It Was Written (1996) (Don't kid yourself, it's an underrated classic.)
• Jay-Z - Reasonable Doubt (1996)
• Lost Boyz - Legal Drug Money (1996)
• Redman - Muddy Waters (1996)
• The Roots - Illadelph Halflife (1996)
• Jeru the Damaja - Wrath of the Math (1996)
• Mobb Deep - Hell on Earth (1996)
• Xzibit - At the Speed of Life (1996)
• Chino XL - Here to Save You All (1996)
• Ras Kass - Soul on Ice (1996)
• Fugees - The Score (1996)

What, just because most of these albums are Hardcore/Mafioso/Gangsta means they're not the best? They dominate albums from any other era. Accept facts and move on with life... -Tainted Drifter

Despite the fact that many of those albums are classic (in my humble opinion), they're a different style. So you can't have both Run-D.M.C. and B.I.G. be "golden age" artists. I guess the reason the former is "golden age", and not the latter, is that the latter is more like what's popular today. All golden ages are (at least on the surface) far from the current trends.

Anyway, even if '94-'96 would be a better golden age in retrospect, we can't just change it. We're just an encyclopedia - we don't invent terms, we catalogue them. Since ≈'86-'93 is what is usually referred to as the golden age, that's what our golden age article must deal with. Λυδαcιτγ 00:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that it's hard to say that the "Golden Age" of hip hop went strictly from 1986-1993, that is a good barometer. There were albums after 1993 that had a "golden age sound," but for those of us who were there, the world of hip hop really did start to change in 1993 or so when Snoop's Doggystyle album came out, and G-Funk and synth started to overtake soul and James Brown beats. Previously, those had been a niche genre (West Coast rap), but then they became the rule. You could make arguments that a lot of albums came out in 1997 and after that sounded like golden age albums (All City's Metropolis Gold, and Redman's Doc's Da Name 2000 come to mind, off the top of my head) but they are clearly outside of the "golden age." The year 1993 is pretty well established as the year the golden age gave way to more electronica and West Coast synth (Bone Thugs & Harmony, Coolio, Tha Dogg Pound, etc). I agree Illmatic fits into the golden age sound, but there was a line in the sand, and 1994 was post-golden age, in my opinion. Bill shannon 02:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Bill, I think you missed the point I was trying to convey. I wasn't implying that the albums I posted fit what's considered "Golden Age" or anything. I was questioning why those years are considered Golden Age in the first place meanwhile the mid 90s contained albums that can't be topped by any other era in terms of quality, lyrics, production and sound, but of course; that's just my opinion.--Tainted Drifter 22:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm kind of new to wiki, but have been a student of hip hop through all of the "ages." My definition of golden age was when we saw the first divergence in styles and this definitely ocurreed between 1986-1993, while a convergence seemed to occur in the later years, as the DJs and crews seemed to disappear and sounds became more 'G-Funked.' I believe this is why 86-93 was considered the "golden" age, as it was the first renaissance in hip hop music. Perhaps a new terminology called "Hip Hop Renaissance" is more appropriate? --GDaKine 05:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, these are all interesting ideas, but they are opinions and original research. For Wikipedia, it is really better if you can give citations for the terms, both those used in articles and used as names for articles. Smmurphy^(Talk) 20:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Significant albums?

Maybe we should come up with a list of significant albums of this era, especially ones that are representative of the different sounds of the time period. What say you? Bill shannon 02:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it would fly, since we already have problems (see previous discussion topic) with NPOV. A similar list was deleted; a quote from the AFD may be helpful: "Agreed with the prod'd statement as to the fuzziness of the situation. It seems like pretty much any hip hop artist who was active from '85-'90 could be on this list. Since there isn't strict criteria attached to "golden age hip hop" and it is such a BROAD group of artists, it doesn't seem like it serves much of a purpose." Same thing with the albums. Λυδαcιτγ 03:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silver Age

could the 90's be considered the silver age?,if not why isn't this murged with the old school thread? User:Blackdragon6

Are they usually called the Silver Age? If not, calling them that would violate WP:OR. Λυδαcιτγ 03:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

yes they usualy are Blackdragon6

[edit] Golden age dates

I've added a citation for this basis of dates and mentioned another view in the references, also cited. I don't like the idea that allmusic.com gets to define music in this way, and would rather weaken the language to say that some would call the golden age these dates, while others look later or earlier. Looking at other Golden Ages, most end with some sort of a major change or "devestating event (see Golden Age). Thus, it would be nice to give some event or statistical milestone to give more strength to the idea that raps glden age ended when we say it did (otherwise in 50 years, raps golden age could easily be said to stretch much further. If anyone finds other citations for the dates, they should be noted, and eventually the article should reflect the idea that the "Golden Age" of an art form is always a contested concept, and that in this case we have picked these dates (whatever dates they may be) and events, although outliers exist. Smmurphy^(Talk) 21:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

wich is why i think the early to mid 90's shoul be called the silver age of hip-hop Blackdragon6

What ended the golden age was Tupac and Biggie's deaths.--Urthogie 23:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Jack swing era?

This article mentions nothing of the New Jack swing era that bridged the gap between the "Golden Age" of the 80s and the "Gangsta" Rap era of the 90s. From approximately 1987-1994 this hybrid of R&B and rap was truly the first type of, what would come to be known as, hip hop which transcended into the mainstream music scene. Example artists from this era would include Janet Jackson, Boyz II Men, Bobby Brown, and Bell Biv Devoe. 90sMusicFan 23:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)