Talk:Gomoku
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[edit] someone explain this to me
In the 2nd example, it says move 20 is a blunder for white. It doesn't bother to explain this clearly. From how I see it, either side wouldn't matter. Black can force a win near the top of the game no matter how white places its stone. In fact, it may even have been preferable for white to have placed its stone on the left of that group of 3 near the bottom, as it prevents growth from the half blocked 3.
so- I don't get it.
What does the following paragraph in article mean
Beyond the most rank beginner ability, making two intersecting runs of three stones (each line open at each end), which is an automatic win for the player who makes the two lines, is illegal.
Which move is illegal?
- Winning against me :-). Seriously, hope the rewrite helps. -- NickelKnowledge
- Not really. Who says it's illegal? What defines "the most rank beginner ability"? How is it invalid? How do the rules enforce this? This could possibly be an opportunity for a formal exposition of the rule set you're using, similar to several of the other board game entries. Please take care to cite whose rules they are (is there some national or international association for this game?), since the rule you're expressing is clearly not universally-acknowledged (nor even universally-known -- I've certainly never heard this one). Care to take the challenge? -- Bignose
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- I think it is a universal rule, but it is usually not given to beginners. After a while, beginners realize that the game is pointless, because Black can force a win, and then they're given the additional rule. I doubt that there are "official" Gomoku rules or organizations; the closest serious game is Renju. --AxelBoldt
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It is a universal rule, especially when it comes with the 3,3 ban, and also an official one. Coaches actually teach this rule very specifically. HistoryManiac 09:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Those numbers 10^105 and 10^70 seem inconsistent: if there are 10^105 possible board positions, how could there be only 10^70 possible games?!! --208.58.250.170
- The figures are accurate (they come from a paper written by Allis), it's an uncommon property of games and of the "olympic list" of board games only renju/gomoku has it, it's because each of the board positions don't have to exist in a seperate games. Also note that the number of board positions is an upper limit. --Imran 21:22 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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- Allis is talking about 15x15 gomoku. You have inserted (and reinserted) his figures in a place that is clearly talking about 19x19 gomoku. Also, Allis does not claim that there are about 1070 possible 15x15 gomoku games. He gives the figure 1070 as a crude approximation to the game-tree complexity of 15x15 gomoku, which is a very different thing.
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- You have inserted Allis' figures into a number of other articles, apparently making the same mistake in each case. You need to correct these, making it clear what the figures actually mean. --Zundark 09:13 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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- I missed the 15x15 board size. Game-tree complexity, unless I'm mistaken is the number of leaf nodes on a full game-tree generated from the games starting position, wouldn't the the number of leaf nodes (representing each route from a start position to an end position) be the same as the number of possible games ? --Imran 10:06 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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- Game-tree complexity (as Allis defines it) is the number of leaf nodes in a full-width search tree (from the starting position) that goes just deep enough to determine the outcome of a perfectly played game. For many games, including gomoku, this search tree is likely to be tiny compared to the full game-tree. --Zundark 10:35 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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- You're right, I should have read Allis' definition more carefully. --Imran 13:59 27 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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Linguistic Trivia
1. The second character in gomoku is actually 'eye', not 'point' ('goban' means five points or, more literally, five count)
2. The alternate name is 'goban' rather than 'gobang'. There is no terminal 'ng' phoneme in Japanese so 'gobang' is not a possible contruct.
3. Another common name is 'gomoku narabei lenju' - literally 'five-eyes in-a-row assembled'. -- Norio 10:40 2 Sep 2004
- With regard to your point 2: "Gobang" is not an official transliteration. It's a word invented by English speakers who heard a Japanese speaker say 五番. (In Japanese /n/ nasalizes the preceding vowel, which can cause it to be heard as /ŋ/ by an English speaker.) Gdr 20:16, 2005 Mar 17 (UTC)
[edit] Played on squares or intersections?
I've been taught Go and Gomoku in a Go club in Copenhagen.
While the stones are played on the 19x19 intersections in Go, I was taught to play them inside the 18x18 squares when playing gomoku. I got the impression that was how it was played in Japan, too.
A search on the internet suggests that both forms exist, but that the 19x19 version is the more common - certainly in computerized versions.
Which one is the more traditional? Is the 18x18 version just a local variant, or is it played in e.g. Japan too? --Niels Ø 09:24, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
It is usually played on the intersections like most Orient board games although it is up to you if you decides to place them on the squares. However in tournaments, it is known to on the intersection. One think to note that though the English name derives from Japanese, its actual origin is somewhat hard to prove. Therefore, this game cannot be a purely a "traditional Japanese" game. HistoryManiac 09:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] First to solve?
In reference to wiki in other languages, a Japanese already solved the game before the one mentioned in this article. --24.35.32.43 06:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Solution?
Where can the solution be found? Viktor Allis is uncontactable.
Answer: Solutions were found by Computer, so it's hard to show you all positions. But you can trust this because there must be at least 10000 players around the world, who can prove a surewin on board-size 15x15 and bigger. I think there's a surewin on 13x13 too, but nobody would take time to prove it, because it's not interesting. Smaller board sizes would reduce the branch-factor and therefor less complex.
[edit] Gomoku is not fully solved
L. Viktor Allis only solved 1 start-position (Free-Style) where first player can place his first and second stones freely, the result is that the first player could gain more spaces and possible connections for his next stones. But if you use swap rule (or something like that) with some given stones on the board, you have to place these given stones carefully and well thought to get an even position. Voila! The game has gotten much more complicated and not easy to solve. The more "given" stones you can place the better position you can get to make the game harder to be solved.
[edit] The algorithm
Could someone please rewrite the algorithm more clearly? I think only the author would really understand it as it is.
- I have not read it, because I don't think I can use it. It's just a simple treesearch base on some basic game-knowledges. Now a day there's a strong Gomoku AI-tournament takes place every year, called gomocup. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.179.178.111 (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
