Template talk:Hellenic Navy

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[edit] Motto

I have corrected the motto based on the information on the website of the Hellenic Navy[1]. Apparently it is a quote from Pericles. Argos'Dad 03:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

And supplanted the copyrighted image Image:GEN Greece.PNG with one you "created" Image:HellenicNavy.png, which is nothing more than a resizing of the original. Pixel for pixel, dimension for dimension, if you resize the original down to the size of the second image, it's an *exact* copy. I'm removing this image because it is a clear copyright violation. --Durin 13:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

First, the emblem is not copyright protected. It was first published in the United States before 1923 and therefore is in the public domain in the United States. Additionally, It is based upon the plain language of naval regulations of Greece, which are not able to be protected under U.S. or Greek law. See 17 USC 102(b) and the WIPO Copyright Treaty.

Second, my image, which I made using photo shop pro, is different the the image you previously removed. I changed the color blue to the correct shade of navy blue and the Greek letters which form the motto of the Hellenic Navy were completely replaced with different letters. I trust you didn't look closely (despite your pixel by pixel comment) and assumed that I simply copied the image and resized it, but you are, in fact, wrong in your assumptions. Had you given me the benefit of an assumption of good faith and asked, I would have explained all of this to you. So, to summarize, the previous image was erroneously tagged as copyright protected, which the emblem is not. Second, I created a new work which I have released into the public domain, which is based on a public domain emblem. Accordingly, I am placing my image back in the template.Argos'Dad 15:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• The color change is insignificant. In the original, the r/g/b is 0/70/120. In yours, it's 1/71/120. As for the changed letters, the letters were not changed. The font is the same, the letters are the same. In one version they are slightly blacker than in the other. The differences here are insignificant and do not constitute an original work that you alone retain rights to. That's copyright reality. The original author has rights to the image, not just you. If the original is not copyrighted, then correct the original. You don't need a modification of it for the template. According to http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/agen_en.asp, there is a copyright statement. I have sent an e-mail to their webmaster asking for clarification of the copyright status of the image. Until proof is provided that the image is, in fact, in the public domain then we must assume, per our policies, that it is not available under a free license. Please do not re-add this image again to the template until such proof is provided. Thank you, --Durin 15:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a response from that webmaster but, stranger things have happened. About the copyright challenge, as I'm nowhere near being an expert on copyright laws etc. could we use Image:GEN Greece.PNG and resize it until this issue is resolved? The template would really look a lot better with an image. --Kimon^talk 16:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• It's not unprecedented. I approached government of Quebec regarding a copyright issue on road signs and received several responses. Regardless, we have to try; if we don't, we have to assume it's not available under a free license. As for Image:GEN Greece.PNG, no we can not add it to the template. Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9 forbids the use of non-free imagery on templates. Whether or not the template looks good is completely trumped by our copyright policies. --Durin 16:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, this emblem was published in the United States before 1923 and therefore is in the public domain. I am not relying on a fair use exception, so the Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9 is inapposite. Regardless of your view as to whether my work is a new image, I spent hours replicating a public domain emblem. I did not use a "font," I hand-crafted letters in an ancient Greek style that is also not copyrightable. Please do not remove this image again. You are not the final authority on copyright law and the facts I have presented here warrant deference. I have established that this image is Public Domain and I have released my version of it.Argos'Dad 17:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Then please provide evidence that the image was published in the U.S. before 1923. If you can not provide this evidence, then there is no proof that it is in the public domain. We do not work on an assumption of public domain until proven not so here. We assume non-free license until proven otherwise. Your assertion that it was published in the U.S. before 1923 does not constitute proof. Replicating an image (regardless of license and time required) does not grant you full rights to an image. If it did, anyone could trace the logo for Coca-Cola and claim it was theirs. Even if you slightly modified the colors of the logo, and slightly modified the text used on the logo, it would still not be fully yours. If you attempt to make a million t-shirts and sell them for profit with such a logo, Coca-Cola Corporation would sue you faster than you could put one of the t-shirts on. Further, a particular font may be in the public domain but works created from it may be copyrighted or trademarked. For example, the word "Google" used with the colors they use and the font they use is fully copyrightable, even though the font used is free license. Thus, simply because a font is freely available does not mean that the particular arrangement used is also free. Your recreation uses virtually identical textual representation as the original. This is not, thus, an original work, but a derivative work. You are free to dispute me on this, but all I am asking for is evidence it was published in the U.S. before 1923. If you insist on putting this image back on the template without providing this information, I'll refer the matter to WP:AN/I for further review. Wikipedia takes copyright seriously. --Durin 17:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure why your tone throughout this entire discussion is so rude, but that and your threats to "refer the matter to WP:AN/I" appear to constitute incivility, please see Wikipedia:Civility. Furthermore, your authoratative tone ("We assume non-free license until proven otherwise") is unhelpful. Wikipedia is a cooperative effort and your tone and attitude diminishes the desire to act cooperatively; surprising in a former Admin.

• Then report me. Taking things to WP:AN/I is simply a means of getting some admins to look at an incident. If a revert war continued on the insertion/deletion of the arms image from this template, then it is entirely appropriate to take it to WP:AN/I. I'm sorry you feel threatened by this. I've tried to explain this situation as best I can to you. Apparently, this constitutes rude behavior. I am being authoritative only in so far as policy says we are supposed to handle images. If you dispute the policies, take it up with Wikimedia Foundation. That the policies exist and that some people stand in support of those policies does not make those people authoritative; we're simply exercising the policy. I'm sorry you don't like the policy, but it really isn't an issue you should be taking me to task for. I didn't write it. --Durin 15:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not add the emblem back intothe template since you obviously have raised concerns about its status in the public domain. I will be happy to provide evidence of the use of this symbol in the United States prior to 1923 once I determine what the process is for having a legitimate Wikipedia authority review and certify its status. In the meantime, I would propose to use the Hellenic Naval Jack in this template. Do any of the editors who are interested in this template object? Argos'Dad 20:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't object to having the naval jack (Image:Naval Jack of Greece.svg) included and since it is licensed under GNU, it should be compliant with existing policies. --Kimon^talk 20:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• See m:OTRS. Naval jack is fine. --Durin 21:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The naval jack option seems to be the best option for now -- but if we are getting rid of the naval emblem, we may as well get rid of the Hellenic Army and Air Force emblems too, as well as all the other insignia for every other military currently documented on Wikipedia. Whatever image we end up using, we need to change the painfully literal translation of the quote. Is that really what the Hellenic Navy uses as its official English-language translation? I like this one much better, although the site I found it on doesn't credit the translator or show the original Greek passage: "If they invade our country by land, we will invade theirs by sea and it will turn that the destruction of a part of Peloponnese will be worse than the destruction of the whole of Attica would be for us. For they can get no more land without fighting for it, while we (by controlling the sea) can get plenty of land both in the islands and on the continent. Therefore, sea power is of great importance"

From a speech delivered by Pericles (498-429 bC) in the Athenian Assembly, on the eve of the Peloponnesian War(431-404 bC) available at greeksongs.gr.--Jpbrenna 02:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the quotation in context is much more poetic. Could we link to the Pericles speech from the quote and then when someone sees the quote they can find some context. Without the context, "Sea power is of great importance" sounds very circumspect.Argos'Dad 02:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Sea power is of great importance" is a fairly liberal translation of "Μέγα το της θαλάσσης κράτος", which in direct translation means "Great is the sea's power", and implicitly, "Great is the power of [the state that controls] the sea". As for the dispute on the use of the General Staff's emblem, I see there is a copyright problem, but although I'm not fully up-to-date on the relevant Greek legislation, it is my impression that government-published pictures, or pictures in public view and use do not have a copyrighted status (in Greece, that is). Anyway, it is very doubtful that any Greek government agency would actually cause problems because of its use (or send a response via e-mail on that matter, either). However, if anyone could create a free-license version, it would certainly be for the best. Regards,Cplakidas 10:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)