Talk:Hoagie

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Contents 1 Hogg Island 2 Read the Delco Times article linked in this article. 3 Not only a Philadelphian food 4 Cheese hoagie 5 Cut vertically? 6 Portal 7 Hoagie = Sub? 7.1 Merge to Submarine sandwich 7.1.1 Survey 7.1.2 Comments 8 Sounds too anecdotal

[edit] Hogg Island

My father-in-law, an Italian immigrant who worked on Hogg Island tells a slightly different story. The men who worked on Hogg Island were not ship builders but rather ship destroyers, cutting up old ships for scrap metal to be used in the war effort. Several men were chosen to be cooks each day. It was their sole responsibility to prepare lunch each day. An account was kept and on pay day each man paid for his lunches. In addition to hoagie sandwiches, sausages, pork chops and chickens marinated in olive oil and Italian herbs, were laced onto poker-spits and cooked over a wood fire. As the meat cooked, the pokers were removed from the fire and blotted on split loaves of crusty Italian bread allowing the juices to soak into the bread. He also spoke of shooting song birds in the New Jersey pine barrens and cooking them on the pokers. Originally posted by 130.49.221.74.

That fact they were building (and not destroying) ships at the yard on Hog Island is well documented and verifiable. See our article on the subject (this article unfortunately fails to cite its sources, so let's recity that!).ike9898 20:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Read the Delco Times article linked in this article.

I've read the Delco Times article... I'm completely unconvinced. Nowhere is an explanation for the term "hoagie" as in the Philadelphia based narrative and nowhere is there an explanation of how the sandwich migrated to Philadelphia. Unlikely story.

I don't think the article meant to doubt the Hog Island account. I am sure that the Hog Island account is true. The point may have been that the actual sandwhich was developed in Chester, and DePalma came up with the name when he saw the men eating the sandwhiches. Chester isn't too far from Hog Island.

By the way, someone should post the original hoagie story...

Here are two versions in a single article: http://citypaper.net/articles/070695/article020.shtml --BillFlis 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not only a Philadelphian food

I've had hoagies as far north as Canada, and some of the best hoagies I have ever had were from North Eastern PA establishments (they were even listed as "hoagies" on the menu). To say that they are local to Philadelphia is ridiculous. --204.152.176.70 22:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, yeah, subs are everywhere, but the name "hoagie" (like "cheesesteak") is very much associated with Philadelphia, just like "muffuletta" is associated with New Orleans and "baguette" with France. BillFlis 12:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

My experience is that decent implementations of a hoagie can be found with ease within a radius of 100 miles of Philadelphia. This includes samples from as far afield as Easton, Lancaster, Camden, Wilmington, and even Baltimore. New York tends to get it wrong, and the proper bread is not available locally in Washington DC. I'm not so sure about this "vinegar" thing; I've been pretty strenuous about avoiding posting on controversial subjects, but as a Delaware native who used to work in Center City, the choices are "oil" or "mayo"; never seen "vinegar" among the offerings in a traditional sub shop (the Quizno's, Jerry's, and Subway chains need not apply, mkay?). Anyone else share this opinion? Ke4djt 13:09 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that vinegar is not standard on hoagies. I'm dropping it from the article. ike9898 20:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've visited at least three Lee's Hoagie Houses (it's a rather loose chain), and I don't remember seeing anything but oil and mayo. But Dietz & Watson markets a "hoagie dressing" of oil, seasonings (mainly oregano), and, I think, a little vinegar, making it a sort of Italian salad dressing; unfortunately, their website doesn't even show this product. Salumeria, of Reading Terminal, offers also a "hoagie spread", which looks creamy, like a seasoned mayo (I like it, even though I'm sort of morally opposed to mayo on a hoagie--what is that, a French hoagie?).

[edit] Cheese hoagie

"There are cheese-only hoagies (Provolone, American, or Mixed), which replace the meat with extra slices of cheese, but many Philadelphians will not admit such is a hoagie." That last bit is rather POV, and what's more, I don't agree with it. Cheese hoagies are widespread and have been around as long as I can remember (30 or more years). Cavanaugh's used to make a nice one with Provolone, American, and, believe it or not, Swiss cheese; I'll take mine with "hots"! Lee's Hoagie House's menu lists a Cheese Hoagie: http://www.leeshoagiehouse.com/images/menu.pdf BillFlis 00:44, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think I put some variation that "Philadephians won't admit such is a hoagie" but it was only revised, never removed. I think the premise was that original hoagies are what today the shops label "Italian Hoagies." Since then it has derived into many other varieties. And, unfortunately as was also discussed on this page, places like Pittsburgh have drastically altered the original hoagie and still call it "hoagie." Dan 01:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cut vertically?

I've moving this: "Hoagie rolls are always cut vertically, in the same manner that a hot dog bun is cut." here to the Discussion page because it's not factual. Not trusting my own recollection, I found several pix of hoagies on the web [1] [2] [3] [4] which clearly show them cut sideways. I remember seeing them cut vertically in some places too, but I can't even find any evidence of that on the web. Furthermore, just about all the hotdog buns I buy are cut horizontally too.--BillFlis 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portal

Hi. Please refrain from spamming the Philadelphia portal template on articles that are only tangentially related to the city. While it's acceptable to use on articles relating directly to the city, putting it on articles like Pretzel, Hoagie, and Stromboli is taking things too far. Thanks. - EurekaLott 04:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• I really want to assume good faith about your post, so before I take offense at your use of the word spam I am going to post my justification. The article is listed under Category:Philadelphia cuisine, and features Philadelphia in the article. Philadelphia is an eating-town. The portal is appropriate. --South Philly 13:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hoagie = Sub?

Hoagies are Subs. Don't use the word Sub.

This dictionary defines "hoagie" as a kind of submarine sandwich.--BillFlis 02:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge to Submarine sandwich

"That's what we call them in Philly" is not sufficient for a separate article. There may be enough here to develop a section in Submarine sandwich with a title like The Philadelphia hoagie (or similar), but since hardly anything on this page is sourced, maybe not. / edgarde 19:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  * '''Merge'''  or  * '''Keep'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Merge. Same sandwich. Discussions like "vinegar" (not to mention feta, or varieties of provolone) are not specific to the Philadelphia hoagie, and the Regionalism section of this article shows the word is not bound to any distinctive formulation. / edgarde 21:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

So would Po' boy (what they call them in New Orleans) be merged there as well? What about spuckie and hero sandwich? Hmm, grinder sandwich seems to redirect right back to submarine sandwich. Then there's the steak bomb! Sounds like a lot of work.--BillFlis 20:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is about the Hoagie merge. Other regional names for the same thing should probably also be merged, but those are separate discussions.

What would probably end up happening (now that I think about it) would be an expansion of the Submarine sandwich Regional names and variations section (rather than a subsection for each region's sandwich name). Remove all the WP:OR and unsourced statements and it wouldn't really be that long. / edgarde 21:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Since neither "submarine" nor "hoagie" are the oldest names of the generic multi-layer sandwich that originated the whole concept, why should this be combined under "submarine?" While I do agree that "submarine" or "sub" is probably the term most often used(in the U.S.) today, I would think that separate articles would be more useful. Or are you gonna throw in "Cuban Sandwich" under "submarine?" After all, "Cuban Sandwich" predates "sub" by about 40 years. Samclem 01:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

For all we know, the Earl of Sandwich called it something else in 1763.

In this case, the most common name would be the correct one for the article title. / edgarde 01:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Then I propose we use "Sandwich" as the article title, and "submarine" can be listed as a variety of a sandwich. Sound OK? Samclem 03:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Sandwich is a superset of hoagie that contains other types of sandwiches, so they're not the same thing.

Can you explain the difference between a hoagie and a submarine sandwich? This article fails to do so. It's a duplicate article and needs to be merged. / edgarde 03:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

• I could be convinced that Hoagie doesn't need be a separate article, but I disagree that Submarine sandwich is the generic term for all sandwiches of this type. I actually think that a Hoagie has certain distinguishing features (bread sliced vertically, normal veggies included are lettuce, tomato, onion; normally no pickles or mustard), but others seems to disagree with me. ike9898 18:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, Merriam-Webster defines a hoagie as a type of submarine sandwich. However, this dictionary agrees with you that there is no generic, all-inclusive term; "submarine" is regional too (if you look up "hoagie" there, it refers you to this page, titled "submarine, grinder, hero, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo"). That would suggest that "submarine" and "hoagie" should not be merged, unless it is into an article on "submarine, grinder, hero, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo". So keep.--BillFlis 15:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

• Hoagie is commonly used in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware. Its history and regional influence (Philadelphia is particular) make it unique. I think it is important to recognize that people (like myself) frequently use the term "hoagie" and do not view it as a submarine sandwich. Part of what gives wikipedia value to so many people is that it has articles on topics that traditional encyclopedias neglect. This page is one such example. I would be willing to add a section on the history of the term "hoagie" to provide its uniqueness if that would allow this article to exist (Would require a lot of research to be correct, plus cleanup of my typos once I am finished). In the meantime I have to go and checkup on the Scrapple and Panzarotti pages. Jackspenn 04:01, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' Hoagie is a unique type of sandwich within a broad category of sandwiches. It is not a sub-type of submarine. ~~~~

[edit] Sounds too anecdotal

The section on the origin of term sounds far too anecdotal be reliable, especially since the author seems to combine two explanations into one -- attributing the name both to Hogg Island and to the idea that the workers looked like hogs while they ate. Neither concept seems credible. References would be necessary, and I suspect there's a more accurate explanation that would trump both these silly ideas. 75.24.244.98 19:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)