Talk:Intact dilation and extraction

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This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute. Please read this talk page and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles.

1. Archive 1 - Partial-birth abortion archive
2. Archive 2 - Intact dilation and extraction archive

Contents 1 Why so many descriptions? 2 NPOV tag 3 Intact 4 18-Apr-06 edits 5 Revert 22-Apr 6 Here is an Idea 7 Unsourced statement 7.1 More 8 Merge, final check for consensus 9 Why controversial 10 IDX vs Partial Birth Abortion 11 Circumstances under which this procedure is used 12 Termination/Reproductive Rights 13 Images 14 PROWARRIOR and anon's edits 15 "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice": Unnecessary POV Terminology. Let's remove it. 16 Partial Birth Abortion 17 Late Term Abortions

[edit] Why so many descriptions?

I honestly do not understand why there are 3 different descriptions of the procedure on the page. I especially do not know why there is the non-technical, POV description. Is the argument that the inclusion of a medical/encyclopedic description so POV that it needs to be ballanced by an opposing POV description? I feel that the pro-life POV can be included in a manner that does not necessitate quoting that description. I would propose removing both of the quoted descriptions. --Andrew c 22:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

Presenting the description of this operation by an American right-to-life organization is both blatantly POV and indicative of systemic bias. Does anyone seriously contend that their description is presented from a NPOV? Kaldari 05:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So do you agree with me that 3 descriptions of the procedure are too much, and 2 need to be removed?--Andrew c 05:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see the point of the verbatim quoted descriptions. We don't quote descriptions of medical procedures in any other articles, we just describe the procedures from as neutral a POV as possible. Wikipedia is not a battleground, it's an encyclopedia. I don't think Britannica would find either quote appropriate, and neither should we. Kaldari 17:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the 2 quoted descriptions, do you want to remove the NPOV tag yet?--Andrew c 04:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intact

Just passing by so maybe flogging a dead horse, but shouldn't the article explain the meaning of "intact" in this context? (The fetus appears outwardly untouched with the exception of the collapsed skull, unlike with D&E/D&C) --> refactored question AvB ÷ talk 19:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide any sources discussing the meaning of "intact" in the context of iD&X? Otherwise it would be original research. Kaldari 22:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. But first I'm refactoring the above since it must appear in bad taste to quite a few editors around here. AvB ÷ talk 19:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's an example (TWM April 5, 2004, NAF v. Ashcroft - SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK): "An intact D&E is always safer because the fetus comes out relatively intact, involving less passes of the instruments into the uterus. It also has no ability to leave fetal parts within the uterus" ... "The medical literature doesn't do a specific study on intact D&E's versus classical D&E's, and there hasn't been any study in that area. But [im]embedded in the D&E data over the last 10, 15 years there are more and more operators that have moved from doing a strictly dismemberment procedure to an intact variation."

I couldn't find anything in PubMed, which supports Dr. Fredriksen's opinion that there are no comparative studies.

FWIW, Dilation and evacuation makes the same connection (unsourced).

But even if it wouldn't be sourcable, I would still expect it to be one of those assertions that quickly gain consensus support as "stating the obvious". AvB ÷ talk 20:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That's possible, although it would depend on the wording. For example, saying that "intact" is a euphamism would be POV and original research (unless it was sourced and presented as a certain group's opinion). Although that's more a reply to your original pre-refectored suggestion than what you may be suggesting now. Kaldari 20:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right. I had already forgotten what you were responding to. My bad :-O AvB ÷ talk 21:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 18-Apr-06 edits

The bit about Canady is covered both in the intro and the entymology section. I believe it's more appropriate to the entymology section, and so deleted the reference in the intro.

If we're writing an article about the term, we've acknowledged it as a legitimate term. Referring to it as "so-called" and putting it in quotes isn't appropriate.

As I stated above, as far as how often the procedure occurs, we should use the estimate that talk page consensus agrees is most accurate. We shouldn't take accuracy disputes into the article by qualifying estimates by saying they are very old and from biased sources. The methodology of AGI surveys seems to be well respected, and I haven't seen any more recent data. If someone believes another source has a more accurate and/or recent estimate, let's talk about it here. In the meantime, I've deleted the qualification of the AGI number.

Comments on the health of women and fetuses undergoing PBA aren't really relevent to PBA; they're more relevant to the late-term abortion article. If late-term abortions are wrong, they're wrong regardless of the method used. If the PBA procedure has something specifically wrong with it, the motivations of women seeking LTAs are irrelevant. For this reason, I've deleted the Fitzsimmons quote. A comment to the effect of "women who have PBA are motivated by the same reasons as women who have other types of late term abortion procedures" would be more appropriate, but I'm not sure exactly how to word it.

In the entymology section, the phrase "brain suction abortion" is referred to as both non-medical and as politically motivated. This seems redundent to me; I've deleted the non-medical reference. Re-adding the non-medical bit and deleting the politically motivated sentence would be equally fine by me.

The sentence "The IDX procedure is also controversial" doesn't really work with the current formatting of the controversy section. I've tried to make that paragraph flow better with the new first sentence. I've also tried to make the last sentence more accurate. Copyedits welcome.

The sentence about late-term abortion in general would be more appropriate on the late-term abortion article. I've deleted it from the PBA article.

I've also tried to make the last paragraph of the controversy section more accurate to my understanding of the issues.Lyrl 00:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The views of an abortion rights and partial-birth abortion advocate - Fitzsimmons - are unimpeachable and significant. This article is about PBA. The abortion doctors' chief lobbyist falsely stated that PBA was only done in extreme health situations. He later retracted that statement with stupefying candor while still a lobbyist. It is not POV to allow such information - rather it provides vital information about a hotly debated public policy. The debate is largely: Pro-life: "It's barbaric." Pro-abortion: "Yes, but it is only done in extreme health ciurcumstances." This particular statement is relevant, factual, unimpeachable and not-at-all-POV. ____G_o_o_d____ 09:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It is barbaric to have an elective late-term abortion. I agree with that statement. Elective late-term abortions do happen - one only has to spend some time at ImNotSorry.com to see that. Or look at the Guttmacher survey discussed in the late-term abortion article. However, I fail to see how PBA is any more barbaric than the other late-term abortion procedures. And that is the only comparison - PBA vs. other late-term abortion procedures - I would find relevent to the PBA article. Not PBA vs. no abortion at all.Lyrl 22:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert 22-Apr

The term partial birth abortion is controversial. Many people on the talk page have documented that quite thouroughly, and have also documented that they believe it is important that statement be in the introduction. The edit also deleted wikification of the term controversial.

The first trimester is weeks 2-14 (a pregnancy is 2 weeks from last menstrual period at time of conception). The second trimester is weeks 15-27. The third trimester is weeks 28-40. Most IDX procedures are done in weeks 20-24, during the second trimester. Putting the phrase 'third trimester' in the intro is making a false statement.

The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act is covered under the Federal Law section. Putting a large paragraph in the introduction is redundent. Speculation about the constitutionality of the Act is relevant to the Wiki article on the Act, but not to this article.

The article on late-term abortion covers reasons for such terminating advanced pregnancies. Reasons for termination are not relevant to an article on a specific procedure. Furthermore, there is no evidence that sex selection is a significant reason for late-term abortions in the United States. However, if you information about late-term abortion as sex selection in China and India was added to the late-term abortion article, that would be helpful.

Most people do not consider the second trimester (when almost all partial-birth abortions are performed) to be the 'extremely late stages of pregnancy.' Therefore, that statement is false.

Use of the word baby is POV.

AGI is pro-choice, and is a research organization. There is no reason to put that phrase in quotes as if it is suspect.

Everyone who has given an opinion on this talk page has agreed that 'partial-birth abortion' and 'IDX abortion' are interchangable terms. Using different terms in nearby sentences makes them sound less repetitive. Replacing all mentions of 'IDX' with 'partial-birth' makes the article less well-written.

If you read the reference for the AGI number, you will see that it is an estimate, which could be high or could be low. If you want to use the phrase 'at least', then use the number they got from their survey which is 1,274. The higher number is an extrapolation estimating how many were performed by clinics that did not respond to the AGI survey.

'Simple cartoons' is a more illistrative description of the drawings than 'non-graphic illistrations'.

Whether the terms partial birth or brain suction are more or less descriptive than IDX is a matter of opinion.

While pro-choice and pro-life are continuums and not absolute camps, what the people in the middle believe and how many of them there are is a matter of speculation that should not be in an encyclopedia article.

Opponents of partial-birth abortion bans generally oppose use of the term, also. Saying they believe it is 'an accurate and easily understood description of the procedure' is false.

'Supporters of partial birth abortion generally support the idea that all children who are not perfect should be disposed of while it is still legal to do so' is also a false statement.

Health exceptions are exceptions. There is no reason to put that term in quotes.

People who support the availability of this procedure do not go out and advertise it to pregnant women. They are supporters, not proponents.

Some medical conditions (such as anencephaly) have zero survival rates beyond a few days. Using the phrase 'may not survive' makes it sound as if these conditions do not exist.

'Pre-viability abortions' is correct grammar. 'Pre-viable abortions' is not.

There is no reason to put an established phrase such as right to choose in quotes.Lyrl 23:18, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your reasons. Thank you for reverting, and thank you for making your case here on the talk page. That said, I do not agree that IDX and PBA are simply interchangeable terms. The way PBA is defined in legeslation has been ruled over and over again by courts (including the SCOTUS) that PBA is a vague term that could include D&E and sometimes all abortions. G&E tried to make the case the pro-lifers intend for the terms to be synonymous, however this simply does not seem to be the case when it comes to these bills. However, if I am wrong and IDX and PBA are synonymous, then this article should be deleted, and any relevent content merged with the IDX article. --Andrew c 17:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Lyrl for a calm informative revert that is an example to all on how to deal with a disagreement of wording. I also agree with Andrew c's point that as the term is unclear it cannot be considered interchangable. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 18:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

To my understanding, the term is currently used interchangably with IDX. But the fear by pro-choice organizations, and possibly the secret hope of pro-life organizations, is that if the bans are allowed to stand they would in the future be expanded to cover other procedures.Lyrl 18:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone will read this now, and it might already have been covered, but I wonder why the assertaion is made that the word "baby" is POV? If that is true, then isn't "fetus" POV as well? If the little thing has legs to pull out of the uterus and brains to suction out, then it sounds like a baby to me (as well as a fetus, which etymologically is the same). Logophile 01:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Here is an Idea

Let's shorten this article to the facts, shall we? There is hardly even a description of the procedure, what goes on, or why it is necessary to perform such a late abortion. According to About.com'sPro-Abortion page, the reasons for performing it are:

• Lack or lack of recognition of pregnancy symptoms, particularly by adolescents
• Inability to afford a first trimester abortion
• Inability to locate medical assistance during first trimester (due to lack of local medical professionals)
• Lack of financial resources, emotional support, and/or partner

If you don't like the wording of the previous descriptions, go get a medical text or use the one from About:

Background Partial-birth abortion is performed in the second and third trimesters of pregnancy, with the goal of delivering a fetus that is not alive and incapable of surviving outside the womb.

Specific steps in the most commonly used partial-birth abortion procedure, Dilation and Extraction, are:

1. A medical professional induces a breech (feet first) delivery with forceps.
2. Legs, arms and torso of the fetus are delivered (i.e. expelled from the mother).
3. The back of the fetus' skull is punctured with a scissors-like instrument.
4. A suction device is inserted into the skull.
5. The device sunctions out the contents of the fetus' skull, causing the skull to collapse.
6. The lifeless fetus is delivered.

You take a kid, you stab him in the back of the head and you suck out the brain. Cut and dry, to the point. I googled a bunch of pictures and there are plenty that can be added. What does a picture of George Bush do for this article? I had to go to another source to read about this becuase this article told me nothing. Call it partial breech, partial birth or full labatomy, it doesn't matter. But make sure that there is actually an entry in all of the propaganda. --Coldbourne 20:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Love the NPOV. The actual procedure is covered in the Intact dilation and extraction article that is linked from this one. Since this is a political term and not a medical one this article deals with where the term PBA came from and how and who uses it. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 20:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The subject is not entirely NoN to me, but it is not something I have a vested interest in. However it starts with "A", which puts it near the top of the Controversial Topics page and thus got my attention. The ID&X page is just as sterile in it's explanation. There is more of an explanation for Extraction (dental) than for Fetus extraction. It also mirror's this page close enough to merit a Merge. --Coldbourne 20:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree there need to be pictures. Like this these: http://mikeaustin.org/partial_birth_abortion.htm

As they say, one picture is worth a thousand words. --149.152.34.43 22:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and a shock picture says one word: POV. I'll remove those on sight and immediately report whoever inserted it. Try me. Alienus 22:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you on this one Alienus. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 23:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

We don't allow any side to present pictures designed to a) overly emphasize a side in the debate, or b) provoke an emotional reaction. The article is sterile, because without *making* it sterile, we risk taking sides. Ronabop 04:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

So keep it sterile, but make it more informative. I propose that the Intact dilation and extraction page be merged with this one. Few people outside of the debate or medical field will be aware of the medical name for this procedure. Wikipedia is here to provide a service to the general public, not a platform for debate. If I were a non-wikipedian looking for information of this subject, I would only walk away with the political implications. --Coldbourne 14:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a link to the procedure. This article is about the political implications - it's a political term. I'm not persuaded at present that neutrality would be better served by discussing the procedure only under a name coined by its opponents. Just zis Guy you know? 15:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely that PBA should not be the catch all term. What about merging this page with IDX? Add a note under Etymology (or rename it terminology), and expanding the political sections?--Andrew c 17:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

PBA is a US term - I never heard it until editing here and the only use of the term I can find on GoogleUK refers to US news reports on the BBC foreign news website. In the UK it would be called a late term abortion (which I think is more widely known in other non US countries) so really that should be the top article with all the procedures/political controversies linked from there. I have voiced this before and it was supported but I haven't had the time to carry out the merge (and take the grief it will inevitably generate) so it's not been done yet. Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 10:16, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

If a US politician started calling IDX/LTA Baby_brain_stab_and_suck, in such a way that opponents of IDX/LTA always referred to it that way, I would be against merging IDX/LTA into Baby_brain_stab_and_suck, just because one side preferred a specific, charged, phrase in order to emphasize their side of the debate. Since there isn't a really clear medical procedure called Baby_brain_stab_and_suck, or for that matter, even a really clear medical procedure called Partial-birth abortion, it doesn't seem to make sense to me to treat the public as if they were so naive as to believe that emotionally charged phrases often used in a heated debate should be used to *define* the content an encycopedia article. Ronabop 03:28, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced statement

This sentence has been flagged with a fact tag for a while now. I am moving here to the talk page. If someone can source this statement, feel free to move it back into the main article. Until then, there is no reason to leave it in the article.

Proponents of the PBA term have not applied the term to IDX procedures in the case of miscarriage, or to D&E abortions.^{[citation needed]}

--Andrew c 15:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More

Here is an unsourced paragraph that has been flagged for awhile:

Supporters of this late-term abortion procedure argue that it prevents the pregnant woman from having to undergo childbirth or abdominal and uterine incisions of a caesarian section (c-section) when the child would not survive; they state that the risks of the procedure are less than the risks associated with childbirth and c-section.^{[citation needed]} Opponents claim that IDX subjects women to unnecessary risks "for the convenience of the physician".

--Andrew c 15:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge, final check for consensus

This has been talked about for weeks, and I'm willing to do the merger. I just wanted to make sure that everyone agreed to merging this article into late-term abortion. Any problems or concerns?--Andrew c 02:01, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep - please do. Sophia ^{Gilraen of Dorthonion} 19:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes indeed. This is mostly duplication. I think there should be a mention of the term PBA on that article, with the relevant "this is a political term" info. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Supporters of bans on "partial-birth abortion" say they are banning a particular method of late-term abortion. While the general public may confuse PBA with all late-term procedures, I don't think public confusion is reason for an encyclopedia article to decide the two are the same thing. I agree that Late-term abortion should be the main article, with Dilation and evacuation and Intact dilation and extraction and perhaps something on induction methods of abortion as sub-articles. But this article overlaps much more with the IDX sub-article than with the LTA entry - if there's to be a merger, I would prefer that one.Lyrl 22:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why controversial

While I'm at it...

I'd like to see some sources supporting the unattributed statement positing as the Truth that "its methodology – removing the fetus from the womb fully intact – has made it highly controversial" (from the introduction). I mean, wouldn't "brain suction" be the controversial aspect according to opponents? AvB ÷ talk 20:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It would be nice to have some sources on why the procedure is considered controversial. Kaldari 20:54, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's like saying watches keep track of time. It doesn't really need to be cited, it's just kind of understood that some people are against it. It must be somewhat obvious since President Bush's ban was struck down by several courts. Cs92 03:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IDX vs Partial Birth Abortion

The article Partial Birth Abortion links here, but this article contains the sentence "The term partial-birth abortion largely refers to this procedure, though they are not equivalent." -- If they aren't equivalent, then WHAT IS partial-birth abortion??? What makes IDX different from PBA? What is the difference between the two terms? Thanks. xxxyyyzzz 19:32, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

PBA is a term coined by pro-life politicians that was used in bills aimed towards banning certain abortion procedures. No where in these bills did PBA ever refer to IDX. The SCOTUS (in addition to other courts) ruled that the wording was so vauge that it could apply to other abortion procedures. No doctor who performs these procedures refer to them as PBA. It is not a medical or technical term. It is used in political discourse to frame abortion in a negative light. Hope this helps. --Andrew c 22:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

So the legal definitions are different, but practically, the two terms refer to the same thing. The two articles are largely redundant. Perhaps there is some way they could be merged. Kaldari 23:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

There is discussion on PBA about a merger. Sophia has suggested merging PBA with LTA and leaving IDX as is. I do not believe PBA and IDX are synonymous. PBA serves a specific purpose and when first defined, was intentionally designed to be vague. However, is this difference significant enough to warrant its own article? --Andrew c 23:40, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

What other procedures besides IDX can "partial-birth abortion" refer to? I can't see the term being used to describe a hysterotomy or an induced miscarriage or even a D&E. What other late-term procedures are there? Kaldari 15:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, depends where you are getting your definition of "partial-birth abortion". Check out the Stenberg v. Carhart decision. Look under (c) (i) for the specifics.--Andrew c 20:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah I see. So from a legal context, iD&X could potentially include D&E as well. That seems like something of a semantic footnote, however, rather than what should define the article. In common parlance partial birth abortion refers to iD&X, in fact it looks like some of the more recent partial-birth abortion bans specifically state that partial-birth abortion does not refer to D&E, in order to remove the ambiguity. Kaldari 20:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up. So, basically:

• Most people, in fact everyone I've ever heard use the term, uses the phrase "Partial birth abortion" to refer to IDX exclusively.
• Some certain politicians, or some certain bills, have used the phrase "partial birth abortion" in a manner so vague it could refer to just about anything.

But the bottom line is, to most people, PBA = IDX. Right? xxxyyyzzz 21:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I removed "The term partial-birth abortion largely refers to this procedure, though they are not equivalent." and copied-in a paragraph explaining the situation from the PBA page (with some minor edits). xxxyyyzzz 20:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Circumstances under which this procedure is used

I think it would be nice to differentiate between the reasons a woman would choose to have a late-term abortion, and, after that first decision has been made, the reasons a woman would choose IDX over other available procedures (mainly induction or D&E). The desire of parents to have an intact body to grieve over has been cited in some articles I've read, and I would like to add some mention of that to this article. (From here: Defending the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban in court, as teams of Justice Department lawyers were dispatched this spring and summer to do, requires arguing to judges that pulling a fetus from a woman’s body in dismembered pieces is legal, medically acceptable, and safe; but that pulling a fetus out intact, so that if the woman wishes the fetus can be wrapped in a blanket and handed to her, is appropriately punishable by a fine, or up to two years’ imprisonment, or both.) I'm not sure how that would go over, so I'm looking for input here before making any changes. Lyrl 15:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the difference is important, and you are welcome to take a swing at these changes. The salon.com article said the doctor the author observed didn't know which procedure he was going to use until he actually began. Different circumstances, like dilation, were a big factor in determining the procedure.--Andrew c 16:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed the "largely intact" comment again, both on a factual basis (it is hard to dispute that the article describing the skull collapsing is in conflict with the body being intact) as well as the comment being fairly POV oriented. The line from the Harper's article cited, "so that if the woman wishes the fetus can be wrapped in a blanket and handed to her" is an editorial comment on the part of Cynthia Gorney, the author. It cites no cases where this has ever occurred, but is presented as an argument against the law in question: "why is it safer to dismember a fetus rather than remove it intact and wrap it in a blanket?". No doctor is quoted as saying they have ever had such a request, no woman who ever did so, etc. If there's eveidence that this is the case, it would seem to be valid for inclusion, but the only reference so far is part of a POV argument. Zooks527 11:56, 10 Sept 2006 (UTC)

One of the names for the procedure is Intact D&E. There is a reason it was named that.

One possible source is stories of women who have had the procedure. Examples [1] and [2]. These women held their dead babies. Doctors don't exactly advertise this procedure, so we are simply not going to find a medical source for this information. And women who have the procedure tend to view it as a very private thing - it is rare to find stories like this published in the media.

The information about intactness is also given here [3] Proponents of D&X suggested other advantages of the procedure including... the opportunity to present a potentially grieving woman with the largely intact body of their baby. When a wanted pregnancy is being aborted... the physician can arrange for a little hat to be placed over the back of the fetal head and the body be wrapped in a blanket for the parents to grieve. That particular quote is describing the court proceedings in the IDX legal case tried by Judge Casey in New York. A better source would be for someone to find the actual court records, of course, but I'm not sure how to go about that. Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 13:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Termination/Reproductive Rights

Re: Andrew c's revert of my last edit: Well, I disagree, so let's discuss this.

You say that "termination is a medical term. it isn't a euphemism, but it does have a medical POV". I don't know what you mean by "having a medical POV". I do, however, know that "termination" is an unnecessarily vague term for what the article is referring to: abortion. Notice, on the termination disambiguation page, the line: "For termination of pregnancies, see abortion." Termination can mean many things, and the only use of using it in the article, that I can see, is to avoid using the word "abortion," for whatever reason--and this is not a useful use.

About reproductive rights vs. abortion rights: The partial-birth abortion debate has never been about reproductive rights, broadly defined. As we can see by viewing the RR page, RR has to do with birth control, education about STDs, and general sexual freedom. The debate is about abortion rights, which is why I changed the link--knowing full well that it redirects to abortion debate. It's a more accurate term. If you'd care to change the underlying link, I can understand that. It wasn't linked in the first place, actually; I added the wikilink. But, like "termination", "reproductive rights" is overly vague for this context and should not be used in the article. --BCSWowbagger 22:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

i partially agree with both of you--i think "abortion" should be used instead of termination. termination means "termination of pregnancy" which is just cumbersome, when abortion would be succinct. but i think "reproductive rights" is the appropriate terminology for the context in which it is used, because that is the title of the reference referred to--it's a quote.

Cindery 23:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

But why should that sentece link to the reproductive rights article? Reproductive rights as a whole are not relevant to that sentence, because no one in that section is talking about eroding the right to know about STD's or to use birth control, which are major parts of the broader discussion of reproductive rights. If there is no good go-to article concerning only abortion rights, then that may the only possible link, but only in part--it really ought to be [ [reproductive rights|abortion rights] ], or so it seems to me.

In any case, I'm going to go and switch back to abortion. I'll leave reproductive rights in place pending further comment. Thanks, Cindery. --BCSWowbagger 06:09, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm... looks like Andrew didn't revert me on the abortion portion. I must have misread the change log. So no edit from me to switch "termination" to "abortion". --BCSWowbagger 06:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. I made a personal comment that I don't feel termination is a euphemsism. Yes, I didn't revert your changes, but I still feel that we shouldn't ban the use of the word because it is a medical term. It almost always refers to pregnancies, not fetuses. And I do agree that at times the terms are interchangable. However, for the sake of not using the same word over and over again in an article, it is good to have a repertoire of vocabulary. I still feel that we shouldn't ban the use of termination, but once again I didn't feel strongly enough to revert the changes. Sorry again for the confusion.--Andrew c 16:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

..well, frankly, BCS, i agree with you that there's no need for euphesisms, and i prefer plain language. but it seems that the reproductive rights article is a stub which doesn't really explain the overlap between contraception/abortion viz "rights." ( with all the controversy over "implantation" etc., i would have to say i agree in general with the term "reproductive rights" as a general term even though it's not well-explained in the wikilink, because there are a lot of pro-choice people who don't think contraception which disrupts implantation is abortificient--the abortion controversy spills over into contraception, etc. and the two sides don't agree on what "abortion" is--so part of the pro-choice position is to insist that contraception is "reproductive rights" not abortion rights. ?) since this is a sticky issue, i think it's better to ignore our opinions and defer to the reference/just reflect the outside world. the reference in this place is clearly an opinion reference--not a fact reference--reporting on the opinions of people holding a position, not asserting the position as fact. (so it's just supposed to accurately reflect opinion; it's not making any other claims on accuracy.) i just read the reference for the first time, though, and i would have to agree it's not a stellar piece of writing. maybe andrew or i or someone else could find a better ref. Cindery 23:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

On the one hand, I don't think we're quite following the same line of thought. On the other hand, this is a good point: the reference in this place is clearly an opinion reference--not a fact reference--reporting on the opinions of people holding a position, not asserting the position as fact, so I'm quite willing to drop it. Thanks! --BCSWowbagger 07:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Why does this article have no images or external links to images of partial-birth abortion (or IDX if you prefer)? Simply that pro-life arguments typically involve the horrible and grisly reality of images is no reason to have such a controversial article without pictures or the topic. 67.171.43.170 01:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Graphic images are generally not preferred. So vomiting and menstrual cycle do not have any images, and pre-ejaculate has only a link to an image.

Cartoon images and line drawings are pretty widely accepted, an example is the article sexual intercourse. The cartoon by Jenny Westberg, published in Life Advocate in 1993 (that started the whole anti-PBA social movement) would probably be both aesthetically acceptable and of historical interest to the topic. However, that image is under copyright. Someone would need to get permission from Ms. Westberg to use it under Wikipedia's GFDL, or find proof that she has already released it into the public domain. Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 02:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PROWARRIOR and anon's edits

Someone has been editing the page to change more neutral, technical language into more casual, vernacular language which I feel lessens the encyclopedic standard of this article. Furthermore, these edits introduced the word "baby" which is highly POV. The WP:NPOV policy suggests we qualify POV with citations, or strive for language that is more neutral. When describing a medical procedure (even if it is objectable), there is nothing wrong with medical language. These edits are akin to editing the Extraction (dental) page to say "A dental extraction is the yanking of a chomper from the pie hole", instead of "A dental extraction is the removal of a tooth from the mouth."--Andrew c 18:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Let the dude have his say Sanka123

[edit] "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice": Unnecessary POV Terminology. Let's remove it.

The user Lyrl says that Wikipedia's policy is "describe groups as they describe themselves." But if this is true, then shouldn't articles say "freedom fighters" every time they want to say "terrorists"? To use "pro-life" without using quotes around the term is perpetuating a POV propaganda term as though it were the most accurate way to describe it. If we're talking about people who oppose abortions, let's say "anti-abortion". If we're talking about people who support abortion rights, let's say "pro-abortion rights". That is a NPOV, precise description of these groups. Even if these groups masquerade as "pro-life" and "pro-choice", that is not the issue at hand. If they called themselves "anti-loser" and "pro-cool", would we use those terms instead? The issue is whether or not these people support abortion rights. Why should an encyclopedia entry perpetuate PR nonsense? So I propose removing both terms when using the narrator voice of the encyclopedia. Organ123 01:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The terms pro-life and pro-choice are used throughout the Wikipedia coverage of related topics. They have significant community consensus over anti-abortion and pro-abortion rights. See for example Talk:Pro-life#A more neutral article title needed and note from Talk:Anti-abortion movement that Anti-abortion movement used to have an article but has now been merged with the pro-life article. Similarly, Abortion-rights movement used to be an article, but was moved to pro-choice about a year and a half ago [4]

Consensus can change, but it should be proposed at a place where most interested parties will see the discussion. Good places would be Talk:Pro-life or Talk:Pro-choice Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Abortion. Attempting to sneak up on the issue by discussing it on a niche-interest page like this is not likely to achieve widespread lasting results.

Specifically referring to the bans passed by various legislative bodies, the bans were not on the IDX procedure. One of the significant reasons for declaring them unconstitutional is that the language was so vague it could be interpreted to include other abortion procedures. Furthermore, they only banned the procedure when the fetus started out alive. In the case of a dead fetus in late-term pregnancy, the bans did not prohibit using the IDX procedure to remove said fetus. For these two reasons, describing the legislation as bans on the IDX procedure is inaccurate. Lyrl ^Talk _C 04:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Good ideas about bringing up the issue on different pages. Incorrect idea to suggest that I was "attempting to sneak up" on anything -- I was simply pointing out what I (still) perceive to be a serious problem with this specific article as it stands. There's really nothing sneaky about it. Thanks for linking to the previous discussions; I'll read through them tomorrow. Regarding your revert of my last edit -- I'm not sure why one paragraph should have "Partial-Birth Abortion" written with the first letters capitalized but with no quotes, while the next paragraph should have it written in lower-case with quotes ... but at least the strange italics are gone. :-) Organ123 07:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the capitalization and quotes either. I wasn't sure which one was correct, which is why I left them alone. It would be nice if someone changed them to match. Lyrl ^Talk _C 15:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading through the archives, I am not convinced that the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" should be used (without quotes or qualifications) in this article. True, the "anti-abortion movement" page and the "abortion-rights movement" page were moved to the "pro-life" page. However, there is broad consensus that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are POV propaganda terms, as the entries themselves explain. There is nothing wrong with having a wikipedia entry called "Pro-life", since it is a popular term that can be defined by an encyclopedia. But if this entry uses "pro-life" and "pro-choice" without proper clarification, it violates a consensus that acknowledges the POV-nature of the terms. Furthermore as Andrew C says above, there is broad consensus that "we qualify POV with citations, or strive for language that is more neutral" (see WP:NPOV). So I argue that either the terms should be rephrased to be less POV, or they should be placed in quotation marks or qualified. Organ123 17:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with you in this instance. When you bring up terrorist vs. freedom fighter, neither term is preferable. In that case, we should either refer directly to the group's name "Hamas" or "Al-Qaeda" or whatever, instead of trying to come up with some less accurate term. However, in this case, there we have to choose more broad terms because we can't always say "Members of Planned Paranthood, NARAL, NAF, and other similar groups". These groups can all be classified as part of a political movement, which is most commonly (and most obviously called) the pro-choice movement. I cannot think of a single term that can describe this body of organizations better. Same thing goes for the pro-life movement. Terms like "anti-abortion" are not always accurate, because of other issues such as stem-cell research, euthenasia (remember Terri Schaivo). And pro-abortion is almost offensive to some people, because very few people actually think abortions are awesome! Furthermore, self-identity comes into play, but not only that, " article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity". The most easily recognizable terms when it comes to these poltical movements is pro-life, and pro-choice. I have yet to find a more common term, or even a more accurate term. However, all that said, if you really want to propose a cross-wikipedia naming convention change, I suggest taking this discussion up at a more visiable location, such as either the pro-life or pro-choice article, abortion article, or the wikiproject abortion talk page.-Andrew c 16:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for responding to my suggestion, Andrew. First, I agree with you that neither "terrorist" nor "freedom-fighter" is preferable -- but I think that only supports my case that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" also are not preferable, given the broad wikipedia consensus, mentioned above, that these are POV propaganda terms. Second, use of these terms in this article is germane only to people's views on abortion rights, not euthanasia, stem-cells, etc. To use a term that encompasses all these other unrelated viewpoints is to be less precise than we can be. Finally, "pro-life" and "pro-choice" may or may not be the best ways to identify such people (I think they're not), but there is currently a broad consensus on Wikipedia that they're POV propaganda terms. In accordance with the WP:NPOV policy, such terms should be placed in quotes or qualified. I am not proposing a cross-wikipedia naming change -- I am simply proposing that, in this article, we respect the existing policies and consensuses. Organ123 18:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Your analogy to treeorist vs. freedom fighter is not comparable. Those terms are relative, based on someone's POV, i.e. Hamas is a terrorist group according to Israel, but they are freedom fighters according to some Palestinians. Different perspective on the exact same group. On the other hand, the terms pro-life and pro-choice are not describing the same group from different perspectives. National Right to Life is not a "pro-life" group according to some people, and a "pro-choice" group according to other people. The vast majority of people familiar with NRtL would classify them as "pro-life" (with a small minority possibly calling them 'anti-choice' as a pejoritive). Next, the matter of consensus. There is no consensus that these terms are POV propaganda (there is a little bit of bias in the choice of language, but it is balanced. Pro-life implies the opponents are anti-life, or pro-death, while pro-choice implies the opponents are anti-choice.) Speaking of consensus, the consensus on abortion related articles is to use "pro-life" and "pro-choice" (and as explained above, this follows our policies of self-identity, and using the most common english term). I see no reason to change the terms used in this article only. Do you have a specific reason why this article, and no other article, should change its terminology?-Andrew c 19:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

My analogy with "terrorists" and "freedom fighters" was to show that wikipedia articles referencing groups should not necessarily describe them the way they describe themselves. Regarding the POV consensus: the pro-life entry says: "Both 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life' are examples of political framing: they are terms which purposely try to define their philosophies in the best possible light, while by definition attempting to describe their opposition in the worst possible light." That represents a consensus that the terms are POV propaganda. If you disagree with that, then we must agree to disagree. Regarding changing "this article only": I'm not arguing about any other article, and I don't have to. I'm only arguing that if this article wants to comply with the WP:NPOV and the consensus about "pro-choice" and "pro-life" being POV, then it should qualify or rephrase the terms. Organ123 19:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

From WP:MOS, regarding self-identity: "Wikipedia’s neutral point of view and no original research policies always take precedence." There is consensus that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are NPOV. Also, whether or not there is a precedent, there's a "Be Bold" ideology here. If there is a precedent, it violates WP:NPOV and WP:MOS and we can be the ones to start the change. Organ123 02:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, from the abortion page: "In the United States, most often those in favor of legal prohibition of abortion describe themselves as pro-life while those against legal restrictions on abortion describe themselves as pro-choice." That is a qualification of the terms, which is appropriate. They "describe themselves as" pro-choice and pro-life; not, the "ARE" pro-choice and pro-life. Organ123 02:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Where was the consensus reached that pro-life and pro-choice should have scare quotes? I haven't seen that in any Wikipedia articles, and I don't find it appropriate for this one. Lyrl ^Talk _C 22:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Is a "scare quote" a quote that's written in really big, blood-colored font? I wouldn't want that either. The quotes I suggested are quoting people who describe themselves as "pro-choice" and "pro-life". It would be easy enough to get a citation for the quotes, if desired. But since there's a consensus that the terms are POV, I suggest that, in accordance with WP policy, they should be qualified in some manner to alert ("scare") the reader that these are not neutral terms. Organ123 22:47, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Where was this consensus that the terms are POV? Where is the policy that says terms the represent a specific POV need to be in scare quotes. There has been a long standing debate whether the main article for the church in question should be called Roman Catholic Church or just Catholic Church. What you are suggesting seems to be like either writing "Roman" Catholic Church, or Roman "Catholic" Church or even "Catholic Church". There is no need for quotations, even if a certain title is associated with a certain POV.-Andrew c 23:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid guideline: "The so-called pro-life movement comprises those who believe abortion should be illegal. [So-called suggests that they are not, in fact, "pro-life". Whether this is true is debatable, so instead make it clear who calls them that—use self-described, or rephrase to "the movement generally known as pro-life . . .".] ... "Self-described" is the term currently in this article, and hopefully that can stand as a compromise. As I understand it, the consensus about pro-life and pro-choice being POV is in the entries for the terms themselves. From the pro-life page: "Both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are examples of political framing: they are terms which purposely try to define their philosophies in the best possible light, while by definition attempting to describe their opposition in the worst possible light." From the pro-choice page: "Both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are examples of political framing: they are terms which purposely try to define their philosophies in the best possible light, while by definition attempting to describe their opposition in the worst possible light ("Pro-choice" implies the alternative viewpoint is "anti-choice", while "pro-life" implies the alternative viewpoint is "pro-death" or "anti-life")." Organ123 00:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that guideline sure is interesting. It is actual not focusing on the term "pro-life" but instead the use of "so-called". (Ironically, isn't that the term you introduced here?) "Pro-life" is just an example, and a rather poor one at that IMO. I think it IS important to mention the term controversy on each terms main article. But to drag the controversy out onto every single article that mentions the terms is not necessary. However, I think the biggest thing to keep in mind here, which I have mentioned above, is self-identity. We avoid using pejorative terms like "pro-abortion" and "anti-choice" by simply going by what these movements call themselves. Imagine going through all the articles that say "Catholic Church" and changing it to "the self-described Catholic Church", how would you feel about that?-Andrew c 00:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Andrew c, your attitude is appears to be getting confrontational -- please assume good faith as we try to reach agreement. I was unfamiliar with the Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid policy page when I suggested "so-called" (but note that I never actually put "so-called" into the entry). The term I introduced into the entry is "self-described", which is the very term suggested in the guideline for dealing with the term "pro-life" -- the exact term in question. If you disagree with the guideline, then I suggest discussing that on the guideline page. To write "self-described" is simply to recognize that the controversy exists, not to rehash the entire controversy. As for the Catholic Church, I'm unfortunately not familiar enough with that topic to comment. Organ123 01:17, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

How about we wikilink the first occurrence of each term so people have access to the full description of the controversy with a simple click of a mouse? I would find that to be an appropriate solution.

Self-described implies there is a controversy. While this is convenient shorthand for people familiar with the naming issue, or for an article where the naming issue is being explained to the reader, it only introduces confusion as a stand-alone term in an article for general audiences. Lyrl ^Talk _C 01:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think a wikilink is a good idea. But also, since there is a controversy, and based on the example in Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid as well as the NPOV consensus regarding the terms, I think keeping "self-described" is a fair compromise here. I don't think the term is confusing, just qualifying and flagging. It's not "so-called" and it's not "scare quotes" or "regular quotes", but it's a concise, NPOV way to acknowledge that controversy surrounds the terms. Organ123 02:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I apologize, because I wasn't trying to be confrontational. Words to avoid isn't saying "pro-life" is a word to be avoided. It is saying "so-called" is a word to be avoided and gives an example by saying "so-called pro-life". I have taken up the issue of that example on that talk page. Next, you are misusing the term "consensus". Consensus means that editors in a content dispute decided as a whole on something. The text of an article doesn't necessarily represent a consensus. As we have been telling you, this topic HAS been discussed extensively, and the consensus from those discussions was that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" were the best terms to use, because they are the MOST neutral (anti-life clearly isn't neutral, same for pro-abortion, anti-choice, etc), and these terms are used as self-identity. The reason why I am so set on this is because I do not want every instance of the terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" to be qualifed with "self-described". I belive these naming conventions should be universial across wikipedia, and as I suggested previously, I'd urge you to make a proposal to change the naming convention on a higher profile article. Maybe go to wikiproject abortion, or talk:abortion, or talk:pro-life and talk:pro-choice.-Andrew c 03:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

OK ... no problem if you weren't trying to be confrontational. I very well may take this topic up on a higher profile page. 1) Regarding Wikipedia:Consensus: "Over time, every edit that remains on a page, in a sense, has the unanimous approval of the community (or at least everyone who has looked the page). 'Silence equals consent' is the ultimate measure of consensus — somebody makes an edit and nobody objects or changes it. Most of the time consensus is reached as a natural product of the editing process." The sections stating that pro-life and pro-choice are POV has been up on both heavily-edited, controversial pages for quite some time without major change. If there wasn't consensus on that subject, the text wouldn't be in there. 2) Even if there is general agreement to use pro-choice and pro-life because of "self-identification", since there is consensus that they are "terms which purposely try to define their philosophies in the best possible light," -- POV -- I don't think it's a big deal to qualify them. I think it is irresponsible and a violation of WP:NPOV not to. Also, it doesn't have to be for every mention -- once per term per entry would be sufficient. Organ123 03:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The terms have remained unqualified on every abortion-related article - with the sole exception of the pro-life and pro-choice articles, which go into detail describing the naming conventions - for some time. That is the current consensus. Qualifying the terms in articles other than those about the terms themselves would require a change in consensus. Lyrl ^Talk _C 14:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet leaving the terms unqualified would require a change in the WP:NPOV consensus. This is the dilemma when people agree to use self-identifying terms that are POV. Admittedly, there may be other dilemmas if we used more precise terms like "pro-abortion rights" and "anti-abortion rights." But I think qualifying the terms with "self-described" resolves the issue. I don't see why this should even be controversial. At this point I'm not proposing anything radical. Organ123 16:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

We view the definition of consensus differently. I see no violation of WP:NPOV by following WP:NCI, so I view the current condition as self-consistent and not in violation of any policies or guidelines. I agree, though, that your most recent proposal is moderate, and personally would not object to using self-described once per term per article. Lyrl ^Talk _C 18:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Partial Birth Abortion

Thats the name. Thats what it is. That should be the name of the article.

--69.37.207.172 13:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Partial Birth Abortion is a non-medical term, coined by politicians. The term in itself is ambiguious. Sometimes it is phrased in a manner to refers to any 2nd trimester abortion procedure, and sometimes it is phrased more specifically to refer a specific procedure performed in specific circumstances. On the other hand, Intact dilation and extraction is a medical term that is clearly defined. We discuss both terms in this article, and the possible controvesy in definition. A previous consensus supported merging both concepts into a single article (we used to have an IDX article and a PBA article with a lot of redundent content). So I appreciate your imput, but I prefer to keep the title as is. Do you have any more specific reasons for changing the title?-Andrew c 01:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Late Term Abortions

Changed the language slightly, removing the words "uncommon" and "only" as they are unnecessary and could be construed as POV. Since the precise numbers and percentages are known and cited, there is no reason to craft the language with those words. The facts are sufficient and readers can decide for themselves what the numbers consitute in terms of prevalence. Ikilled007 05:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)